Reinstalling as an opportunity

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Reinstalling as an opportunity

Donald Allen
I would strongly suggest to Mr. Mraz, who has just been told by Derek that
he's destroyed his system and needs to reinstall, that take this as an
opportunity to use a Linux distribution with top-notch package management,
such as Debian, Ubuntu, or Gentoo. Some may disagree, but I don't think
Redhat and Fedora Core <whatever> are in that category (remember -- good
package management not only involves good package management software, but a
rich respository that isn't rife with dependency bugs). I have the latest
release of Gnucash running, built from source on my Gentoo system. It was
completely painless and hands-off. I told 'emerge' to do it, and it did it.

I continue to be amazed by the amount of pain people inflict on themselves
(and the amount of bandwidth we devote to it on this mailing list) as a
result of poor choice of Linux distributions.

/Don
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Re: Reinstalling as an opportunity

Derek Atkins
I would argue that FC's package management is just as good as the
other distributions you mention.  Perhaps the package library isn't
quite as good, but I trust the release engineering of RedHat/Fedora
much better than Debian or Ubuntu.  For example, GnuCash 2 was only
just pulled into Debian/testing <TODAY>..  In order to use the packages
before today, you had to run Debina/unstable.  I think that's just as
rife with issues as anything else.

The fact that Red Hat doesn't go and upgrade packages in older distributions
is considered a FEATURE, not a bug.

But honestly this is significantly off-topic.  I'll just point out that
someone who goes out of bounds of their distribution's package management
system is bound to screw themselves.  It doesn't matter which OS they
use.  Someone on Debian who goes and tries to upgrade a core package
by compiling it by hand is just as likely to destabilize their system
as someone who does it on Gentoo or Fedora.

But again, this is completely off-topic for this mailing list.  I suggest
replies go to /dev/null.

-derek

Quoting Donald Allen <[hidden email]>:

> I would strongly suggest to Mr. Mraz, who has just been told by Derek that
> he's destroyed his system and needs to reinstall, that take this as an
> opportunity to use a Linux distribution with top-notch package management,
> such as Debian, Ubuntu, or Gentoo. Some may disagree, but I don't think
> Redhat and Fedora Core <whatever> are in that category (remember -- good
> package management not only involves good package management software, but a
> rich respository that isn't rife with dependency bugs). I have the latest
> release of Gnucash running, built from source on my Gentoo system. It was
> completely painless and hands-off. I told 'emerge' to do it, and it did it.
>
> I continue to be amazed by the amount of pain people inflict on themselves
> (and the amount of bandwidth we devote to it on this mailing list) as a
> result of poor choice of Linux distributions.
>
> /Don
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--
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       Member, MIT Student Information Processing Board  (SIPB)
       URL: http://web.mit.edu/warlord/    PP-ASEL-IA     N1NWH
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Re: Reinstalling as an opportunity

Norbert Klein-2
In reply to this post by Donald Allen
Donald Allen wrote:
> ...take this as an
> opportunity to use a Linux distribution with top-notch package management,
> such as Debian, Ubuntu, or Gentoo. Some may disagree, but I don't think
> Redhat and Fedora Core <whatever> are in that category (remember -- good
> package management not only involves good package management software, but a
> rich respository that isn't rife with dependency bugs).
Any comment about SuSE?

Norbert Klein
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Re: Reinstalling as an opportunity

Robert Heller
At Thu, 14 Sep 2006 00:07:26 +0700 Norbert Klein <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Donald Allen wrote:
> > ...take this as an
> > opportunity to use a Linux distribution with top-notch package management,
> > such as Debian, Ubuntu, or Gentoo. Some may disagree, but I don't think
> > Redhat and Fedora Core <whatever> are in that category (remember -- good
> > package management not only involves good package management software, but a
> > rich respository that isn't rife with dependency bugs).
> Any comment about SuSE?

SuSE is another RedHat 'spinoff' -- it too uses RPM, just like RedHat,
FC*, Mandrake, etc. Just as good/bad as RedHat.  I would guess Donald
Allen would feel the same way. There really isn't any more (or less)
problems with RPM based distros than with what Debian, et. al. Yes,
using RPM *bare* tends cause one to have way too much fun with
'dependency hell', but yum and the like take care of this, at least for
the less experienced users.  I expect that Donald Allen has had some
bad experiences with RPM in the past (and yes, before yum, 'dependency
hell' was a major issue with RPM-based distros).  One difference: RPM
is not really *source* based, unlike the Debian package management,
which seems to more likey fetch source code and compile as needed --
RPM-based distros don't fetch SRPMs and rebuild them.  I am not sure if
it is an advantage to anyone outside of developer types to 'install
from source' -- many *end users* don't want to have to have -devel
packages, source code, and tool chains cluttering up their systems.

*Most* of the dependency bugs seen with RPM based repositories show up
when people do *binary* installs from different distros or try to build
bleeding edge packages on older distros.  Otherwise 'dependency hell'
mostly happens with manually downloading binary packages and using RPM
'bare'.  Yum adds a layer of smarts WRT dealing with dependencies,
mostly by using RPM's --test option and re-searching the repository for
missing packages.  Also, since RPM is a binary package mangement,
dependency hell becomes more of an issue -- many 'dependency hell'
issues can often be dealt with by rebuilding the package from sources,
so long as compatible -devel packages are installed (including possibly
*older* -devel packages then those used when the binary package was
built).

I had no problems downloading the RHEL4 RPM for GnuCash 2.0.1.  I did
have to download the other RPM files that it depended on -- I knew to do
'rpm -hUv --test' on the (growing) batch of files until it stopped
complaining and then was able to cleanly install things at that point.

>
> Norbert Klein
> _______________________________________________
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>                                                                          

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Re: Reinstalling as an opportunity

Donald Allen
In reply to this post by Norbert Klein-2
On 9/13/06, Norbert Klein <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Donald Allen wrote:
> > ...take this as an
> > opportunity to use a Linux distribution with top-notch package
> management,
> > such as Debian, Ubuntu, or Gentoo. Some may disagree, but I don't think
> > Redhat and Fedora Core <whatever> are in that category (remember -- good
> > package management not only involves good package management software,
> but a
> > rich respository that isn't rife with dependency bugs).
> Any comment about SuSE?


I have no experience with SuSE, thus no comment.

/Don

Norbert Klein
>
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Re: Reinstalling as an opportunity

Donald Allen
In reply to this post by Robert Heller
On 9/13/06, Robert Heller <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> At Thu, 14 Sep 2006 00:07:26 +0700 Norbert Klein <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> >
> > Donald Allen wrote:
> > > ...take this as an
> > > opportunity to use a Linux distribution with top-notch package
> management,
> > > such as Debian, Ubuntu, or Gentoo. Some may disagree, but I don't
> think
> > > Redhat and Fedora Core <whatever> are in that category (remember --
> good
> > > package management not only involves good package management software,
> but a
> > > rich respository that isn't rife with dependency bugs).
> > Any comment about SuSE?
>
> SuSE is another RedHat 'spinoff' -- it too uses RPM, just like RedHat,
> FC*, Mandrake, etc. Just as good/bad as RedHat.  I would guess Donald
> Allen would feel the same way. There really isn't any more (or less)
> problems with RPM based distros than with what Debian, et. al. Yes,
> using RPM *bare* tends cause one to have way too much fun with
> 'dependency hell', but yum and the like take care of this, at least for
> the less experienced users.  I expect that Donald Allen has had some
> bad experiences with RPM in the past (and yes, before yum, 'dependency
> hell' was a major issue with RPM-based distros).  One difference: RPM
> is not really *source* based, unlike the Debian package management,
> which seems to more likey fetch source code and compile as needed --
> RPM-based distros don't fetch SRPMs and rebuild them.


Not true. Debian (and Ubuntu) primarily do binary package management. You
may be thinking of Gentoo, which emphasizes source-based packages, though
does offer a smaller world of binary packages (some packages are offered in
both source and binary form, others source-only, others binary-only -- the
latter happens mostly when the source isn't available; I think Opera is an
example).

 I am not sure if
> it is an advantage to anyone outside of developer types to 'install
> from source' -- many *end users* don't want to have to have -devel
> packages, source code, and tool chains cluttering up their systems.


Some think that you can end up with a better-performing system, especially
if your processor isn't the least-common-denominator and/or you use
aggressive compiler options.

*Most* of the dependency bugs seen with RPM based repositories show up

> when people do *binary* installs from different distros or try to build
> bleeding edge packages on older distros.  Otherwise 'dependency hell'
> mostly happens with manually downloading binary packages and using RPM
> 'bare'.  Yum adds a layer of smarts WRT dealing with dependencies,
> mostly by using RPM's --test option and re-searching the repository for
> missing packages.  Also, since RPM is a binary package mangement,
> dependency hell becomes more of an issue -- many 'dependency hell'
> issues can often be dealt with by rebuilding the package from sources,
> so long as compatible -devel packages are installed (including possibly
> *older* -devel packages then those used when the binary package was
> built).
>
> I had no problems downloading the RHEL4 RPM for GnuCash 2.0.1.  I did
> have to download the other RPM files that it depended on -- I knew to do
> 'rpm -hUv --test' on the (growing) batch of files until it stopped
> complaining and then was able to cleanly install things at that point.


You just made my point. RPM deals with the atoms -- you have to assemble
them into molecules yourself. Yes, it can be done, but it's more work than

emerge gnucash

or

apt-get gnucash

and more error-prone, as we've seen in countless messages to this mailing
list.

/Don


>
> > Norbert Klein
> > _______________________________________________
> > gnucash-user mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
> > -----
> > Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
> > You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
> >
> >
>
> --
> Robert Heller             -- 978-544-6933
> Deepwoods Software        -- Linux Installation and Administration
> http://www.deepsoft.com/  -- Web Hosting, with CGI and Database
> [hidden email]       -- Contract Programming: C/C++, Tcl/Tk
>
>
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Liz
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Re: Reinstalling as an opportunity

Liz
In reply to this post by Derek Atkins
On Thursday 14 September 2006 02:27, Derek Atkins wrote:
>  In order to use the packages
> before today, you had to run Debian/unstable.
That's our choice, to stay with a relatively stable set of packages until the
conditions of the package management system are met.
thanks for the advice, because I might upgrade now the packages are here.
lIz

--
"Oh, he [a big dog] hunts with papa," she said. "He says Don Carlos [the
dog] is good for almost every kind of game.  He went duck hunting one time
and did real well at it.  Then Papa bought some ducks, not wild ducks but,
you know, farm ducks.  And it got Don Carlos all mixed up.  Since the
ducks were always around the yard with nobody shooting at them he knew he
wasn't supposed to kill them, but he had to do something.  So one morning
last spring, when the ground was still soft, he took all the ducks and
buried them."  "What do you mean, buried them?"  "Oh, he didn't hurt them.
He dug little holes all over the yard and picked up the ducks in his mouth
and put them in the holes.  Then he covered them up with mud except for
their heads.  He did thirteen ducks that way and was digging a hole for
another one when Tony found him.  We talked about it for a long time.  Papa
said Don Carlos was afraid the ducks might run away, and since he didn't
know how to build a cage he put them in holes.  He's a smart dog."
                -- R. Bradford, "Red Sky At Morning"

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Warning: Finance::Quote not installed properly

sunfish62
In reply to this post by Robert Heller
GC gives me the above error still. I have checked that Crypt::SSLeay is
installed. The command:

cpan>install Crypt::SSLeay

reports "Crypt::SSLeay is up to date."

The command:

cpan>install Finance::Quote

reports "Finance::Quote is up to date."

I have rebooted, and GC still gives me my error.

One oddity I see is that my machine has Finance::Quote in multiple locations:

1) opt/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8
2) opt/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/darwin-2level/auto
3) sw/lib/perl5/5.8.6/darwin-thread-multi-2level/auto
4) sw/lib/per5/5.8.6
5) Library/Perl/5.8.6/darwin-thread-multi-2level/auto
6) Library/Perl/5.8.6

These appear to be three pairs of installations; the timestamps on each pair is
the same, with the first pair being the most recent. Ideas?

GC 2.0.1
Intel Mac OS 10.4.7

David

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Re: Warning: Finance::Quote not installed properly

David Hampton-2
On Wed, 2006-09-13 at 15:15 -0700, David T. wrote:
> GC gives me the above error still.

What error?  The message you replied to is a distro flame war.

> I have checked that Crypt::SSLeay is
> installed. The command:
>
> cpan>install Crypt::SSLeay
>
> reports "Crypt::SSLeay is up to date."
>
> The command:
>
> cpan>install Finance::Quote
>
> reports "Finance::Quote is up to date."
>
> I have rebooted, and GC still gives me my error.
>
> One oddity I see is that my machine has Finance::Quote in multiple locations:
>
> 1) opt/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8
> 2) opt/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/darwin-2level/auto

This is probably the CPAN install.

> 3) sw/lib/perl5/5.8.6/darwin-thread-multi-2level/auto
> 4) sw/lib/per5/5.8.6

This is probably the Fink install.

> 5) Library/Perl/5.8.6/darwin-thread-multi-2level/auto
> 6) Library/Perl/5.8.6

No idea.  Looks like an Apple name with the capitals in the path.  Which
path gnucash is trying to use will probably depends on how you installed
it.  aMy guess is that you have ll the pieces installed in one location,
but gnucash is looking in a different path.

> These appear to be three pairs of installations; the timestamps on each pair is
> the same, with the first pair being the most recent. Ideas?

Try the steps in
http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_How_do_I_fix_a_system_error_when_getting_stock_quotes.
See if that helps you figure out what gnucash can't find.

David


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Re: Warning: Finance::Quote not installed properly

David Reiser
In reply to this post by sunfish62

On Sep 13, 2006, at 6:15 PM, David T. wrote:

> GC gives me the above error still. I have checked that  
> Crypt::SSLeay is
> installed. The command:
>
> cpan>install Crypt::SSLeay
>
> reports "Crypt::SSLeay is up to date."
>
> The command:
>
> cpan>install Finance::Quote
>
> reports "Finance::Quote is up to date."
>
> I have rebooted, and GC still gives me my error.
>
> One oddity I see is that my machine has Finance::Quote in multiple  
> locations:
>
> 1) opt/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8
> 2) opt/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/darwin-2level/auto
> 3) sw/lib/perl5/5.8.6/darwin-thread-multi-2level/auto
> 4) sw/lib/per5/5.8.6
> 5) Library/Perl/5.8.6/darwin-thread-multi-2level/auto
> 6) Library/Perl/5.8.6
>
> These appear to be three pairs of installations; the timestamps on  
> each pair is
> the same, with the first pair being the most recent. Ideas?
>
> GC 2.0.1
> Intel Mac OS 10.4.7
>
> David

My experience indicates that gnucash will find the fink installed  
finance-quote before it finds the cpan installed version. The latest  
finance-quote version available in fink is really old (1.8). I have a  
newer info file in the fink  tracker, but it hasn't made any progress  
lately. Apparently there is some question about retaining the old  
version along with the new one so that not all finance-quote stuff  
has to go in crypto. I don't know what I need to do to satisfy all  
the policy and practical issues.

Use fink to remove its version of finance-quote, and gnucash should  
stop complaining -- and it will work with the cpan version just fine.

Dave
--
David Reiser
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Re: Warning: Finance::Quote not installed properly

David Reiser

On Sep 13, 2006, at 9:11 PM, David Reiser wrote:

> [snip]
> Use fink to remove its version of finance-quote, and gnucash should
> stop complaining -- and it will work with the cpan version just fine.
>

And if you're using the experimental fink info file to install  
gnucash 2.0.1, you'll probably have to force-remove fink's finance-
quote, since the old f-q is on the dependency list for gnucash, and  
fink will complain when you try to remove the dependency of an  
installed application. Gnucash still works anyway with the cpan  
installed f-q. I have tested that arrangement with success (though I  
usually compile gnucash from svn instead).

--
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[hidden email]

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Re: Reinstalling as an opportunity

Derek Atkins
In reply to this post by Donald Allen
"Donald Allen" <[hidden email]> writes:

> You just made my point. RPM deals with the atoms -- you have to assemble
> them into molecules yourself. Yes, it can be done, but it's more work than
>
> emerge gnucash
>
> or
>
> apt-get gnucash
>
> and more error-prone, as we've seen in countless messages to this mailing
> list.

Indeed, and "yum install gnucash" has worked since FC1!  You've just
made MY point.

-derek
--
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       Member, MIT Student Information Processing Board  (SIPB)
       URL: http://web.mit.edu/warlord/    PP-ASEL-IA     N1NWH
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Re: Reinstalling as an opportunity

Donald Allen
On 9/14/06, Derek Atkins <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> "Donald Allen" <[hidden email]> writes:
>
> > You just made my point. RPM deals with the atoms -- you have to assemble
> > them into molecules yourself. Yes, it can be done, but it's more work
> than
> >
> > emerge gnucash
> >
> > or
> >
> > apt-get gnucash
> >
> > and more error-prone, as we've seen in countless messages to this
> mailing
> > list.
>
> Indeed, and "yum install gnucash" has worked since FC1!  You've just
> made MY point.


Interesting that something sent to /dev/null ended up here.

I freely admit that I have no recent personal experience with Redhat or FCn
-- struggling to maintain and upgrade a Redhat 7.3 system was quite enough
for me. But I do read what people have to say about their own more recent
experiences. While I don't doubt what you say about "yum install gnucash",
my reading leads me to the inescapable conclusion that, in general,
Redhat/FC systems are harder to administer because they still mostly get
maintained at the rpm level, because the package repositories yum relies on
aren't nearly as rich as Debian, Ubuntu, or Gentoo (see

http://toykeeper.net/soapbox/debian-redhat/

for an example of what I'm talking about; yes, it's 10 months old -- has the
situation changed much?). Yes, it's possible to avoid trouble with rpms if
you really know what you are doing. But it's more work, most folks don't
know what they're doing in this regard (nor should they have to, given the
present state of the art), and they end up in rpm/dependency hell.

I concede your point that gnucash is not an example of this (on an FC
system), but my general point stands: in my opinion, Red Hat and its
relatives are  behind the times in package management and I, for one, would
not subject myself to the pain of maintaining such a system when such good
alternatives exist, free.

/Don



-derek
> --
>        Derek Atkins, SB '93 MIT EE, SM '95 MIT Media Laboratory
>        Member, MIT Student Information Processing Board  (SIPB)
>        URL: http://web.mit.edu/warlord/    PP-ASEL-IA     N1NWH
>        [hidden email]                         PGP key available
>
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