GnuCash and Swedish accounting legislation

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
27 messages Options
12
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

GnuCash and Swedish accounting legislation

Draug
Hi,

For quite a while I've used GnuCash for the accounting of my company,
but recently I've come to question if it's legal to use GnuCash for that
purpose. According to Swedish accounting legislation, you are not
allowed to use accounting software that allows you to edit registered
transactions (where they use Excel as an example), which to my knowledge
is quite easy to do in GnuCash, even after reconcilation. Swedish
accounting legislation requires that every mistake is corrected with
another transaction, and that the mistake is left intact in the records.

Is there anything that I've missed that makes it possible to use GnuCash
in accordance with Swedish law? I really want to avoid switching to some
proprietary, cloud-based accounting software that costs $12 a month to use.

Yours sincerely,
Draug

_______________________________________________
gnucash-user mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
-----
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: GnuCash and Swedish accounting legislation

Draug
After some more research I discovered the day treshold option which
effectively disables me to make any edits after some day, but seeing as
this option is reversible I'm still not sure if this is an option. Is
there anyone that has similar laws in their country and still manages to
use GnuCash for their company, that could provide some input?

On 01/18/2016 09:18 AM, Draug wrote:

> Hi,
>
> For quite a while I've used GnuCash for the accounting of my company,
> but recently I've come to question if it's legal to use GnuCash for
> that purpose. According to Swedish accounting legislation, you are not
> allowed to use accounting software that allows you to edit registered
> transactions (where they use Excel as an example), which to my
> knowledge is quite easy to do in GnuCash, even after reconcilation.
> Swedish accounting legislation requires that every mistake is
> corrected with another transaction, and that the mistake is left
> intact in the records.
>
> Is there anything that I've missed that makes it possible to use
> GnuCash in accordance with Swedish law? I really want to avoid
> switching to some proprietary, cloud-based accounting software that
> costs $12 a month to use.
>
> Yours sincerely,
> Draug
>
> _______________________________________________
> gnucash-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
> -----
> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.

_______________________________________________
gnucash-user mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
-----
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: GnuCash and Swedish accounting legislation

Colin Law
In reply to this post by Draug
On 18 January 2016 at 08:18, Draug <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> For quite a while I've used GnuCash for the accounting of my company, but
> recently I've come to question if it's legal to use GnuCash for that
> purpose. According to Swedish accounting legislation, you are not allowed to
> use accounting software that allows you to edit registered transactions
> (where they use Excel as an example), which to my knowledge is quite easy to
> do in GnuCash, even after reconcilation. Swedish accounting legislation
> requires that every mistake is corrected with another transaction, and that
> the mistake is left intact in the records.

Are you sure that the legislation requires that the s/w does not allow
it, and not just that you have documented procedures that do not allow
it?

Colin

>
> Is there anything that I've missed that makes it possible to use GnuCash in
> accordance with Swedish law? I really want to avoid switching to some
> proprietary, cloud-based accounting software that costs $12 a month to use.

As a matter of interest which s/w were you thinking of that does not
allow modification under any circumstances, including, for example
restoring a backup and re-entering the transaction that way, or
hacking the database itself.

Colin
_______________________________________________
gnucash-user mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
-----
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: GnuCash and Swedish accounting legislation

Katie Eldridge
In reply to this post by Draug
Dear Draug,
For this type of question, I would probably speak to your accountant, or
if necessary a legal specialist in Sweden.  Then you would know
definitely whether the limits provided by the software are sufficient to
meet your obligations.
Katie

On 18/01/16 09:16, Draug wrote:

> After some more research I discovered the day treshold option which
> effectively disables me to make any edits after some day, but seeing
> as this option is reversible I'm still not sure if this is an option.
> Is there anyone that has similar laws in their country and still
> manages to use GnuCash for their company, that could provide some input?
>
> On 01/18/2016 09:18 AM, Draug wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> For quite a while I've used GnuCash for the accounting of my company,
>> but recently I've come to question if it's legal to use GnuCash for
>> that purpose. According to Swedish accounting legislation, you are
>> not allowed to use accounting software that allows you to edit
>> registered transactions (where they use Excel as an example), which
>> to my knowledge is quite easy to do in GnuCash, even after
>> reconcilation. Swedish accounting legislation requires that every
>> mistake is corrected with another transaction, and that the mistake
>> is left intact in the records.
>>
>> Is there anything that I've missed that makes it possible to use
>> GnuCash in accordance with Swedish law? I really want to avoid
>> switching to some proprietary, cloud-based accounting software that
>> costs $12 a month to use.
>>
>> Yours sincerely,
>> Draug
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gnucash-user mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
>> -----
>> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
>> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>
> _______________________________________________
> gnucash-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
> -----
> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>


_______________________________________________
gnucash-user mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
-----
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: GnuCash and Swedish accounting legislation

Colin Law
In reply to this post by Colin Law
Unfortunately it is necessary on this mailing list to use Reply All or
Reply List when replying otherwise the reply goes only to the last
poster.  I am forwarding this to the list for reference.

Colin

On 18 January 2016 at 09:38, Draug <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I've written a mail to the Swedish Account Standards Board, and now awaiting
> answer on how the legislation should be interpreted.
>
> Regarding your second question I'm aware that all transactions in all
> software and whatever can be edited if you have the knowledge, that's why I
> find the legislation even more confusing and unclear.
>
> Yours sincerely,
> Draug
>
>
> On 01/18/2016 10:28 AM, Colin Law wrote:
>>
>> On 18 January 2016 at 08:18, Draug <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> For quite a while I've used GnuCash for the accounting of my company, but
>>> recently I've come to question if it's legal to use GnuCash for that
>>> purpose. According to Swedish accounting legislation, you are not allowed
>>> to
>>> use accounting software that allows you to edit registered transactions
>>> (where they use Excel as an example), which to my knowledge is quite easy
>>> to
>>> do in GnuCash, even after reconcilation. Swedish accounting legislation
>>> requires that every mistake is corrected with another transaction, and
>>> that
>>> the mistake is left intact in the records.
>>
>> Are you sure that the legislation requires that the s/w does not allow
>> it, and not just that you have documented procedures that do not allow
>> it?
>>
>> Colin
>>
>>> Is there anything that I've missed that makes it possible to use GnuCash
>>> in
>>> accordance with Swedish law? I really want to avoid switching to some
>>> proprietary, cloud-based accounting software that costs $12 a month to
>>> use.
>>
>> As a matter of interest which s/w were you thinking of that does not
>> allow modification under any circumstances, including, for example
>> restoring a backup and re-entering the transaction that way, or
>> hacking the database itself.
>>
>> Colin
>
>
_______________________________________________
gnucash-user mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
-----
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: GnuCash and Swedish accounting legislation

Mike or Penny Novack-2
In reply to this post by Draug
On 1/18/2016 4:16 AM, Draug wrote:

> After some more research I discovered the day treshold option which
> effectively disables me to make any edits after some day, but
>> According to Swedish accounting legislation, you are not allowed to
>> use accounting software that allows you to edit registered
>> transactions (where they use Excel as an example), which to my
>> knowledge is quite easy to do in GnuCash, even after reconcilation.
>> Swedish accounting legislation requires that every mistake is
>> corrected with another transaction, and that the mistake is left
>> intact in the records.
>>
>> Is there anything that I've missed that makes it possible to use
>> GnuCash in accordance with Swedish law? I really want to avoid
>> switching to some proprietary, cloud-based accounting software that
>> costs $12 a month to use.
>>
>> Yours sincerely,
>> Draug
No, nothing allows the existence of any software system that can satisfy
the intent of those legislators who apparently haven't a clue about what
a competent software person could do (to get around imagined protections).

If you are asking whether gnucash can be used in a way that complies
with this requirement, the answer is yes. To the same extent that old
fashioned pen and ink on paper accounting can << you know, I could
always copy over in its entirety a set of bound paper books except for
altering certain entries and destroy the first set >> You simply don't
fix things by editing a transaction but by entering a correcting
transaction (follow the rules).

Tell me something. Does Sweden interpret this law to mean "any
computerized accounting shall be done on OUR machines (no physical
access to them) and the data shall be kept on OUR machines (no physical
access to it).

Look, I used to work for one of the world's largest financials. ONE of
the things I did a lot of was to write programs to alter the data
outside of the normal security checks (example -- normally the data
entered by humans from terminals one at a time and full audit trail
produced. Because an error was discovered affecting 150,000 accounts
those need to be corrected,  a correction transaction entered. That
would be a lot of workers sitting at terminals for lots of weeks. Or
somebody like me writing a special program to generate that effect. Now
naturally, I would design that special program so that it ALSO produced
the same audit trail, looked exactly as if had been done normally. but
......

In other words, if the software is running on a machine that I can
access (alter programs if I wish) and the data is being kept on machines
that I can access (and trust me, if I can alter the programs,
encryption, security hashing, etc. will NOT keep me from altering the
data) then the Swedish legislature is fooling itself. Any large Swedish
company would have people in its IT shop who could alter the data.

Michael

PS: The software being open software only makes it easier (and legal) to
create an altered program (which gets around the security). Just because
doing that to proprietary software where you don't have the source code
is much harder and illegal does not mean can't be done. I've wielded
tools like "monitors" and "disassemblers" in my day << for perfectly
legal purposes, having to alter a program that hadn't changed in the
previous several decades and the source code lost -- say never made it
from card to disk when all the punch card decks were retired >>

_______________________________________________
gnucash-user mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
-----
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: GnuCash and Swedish accounting legislation

Draug
After being in contact with the Swedish Account Standards Board, they
effectively said the following (rough translation):

"Generally it can be said that the accounting should be done in an
enduring way. That means that what has been recorded should not be able
to be erased or in any other way made unreadable. The recording of a
transaction in an accounting software in which the transaction records
can be erased or edited is not done in an enduring way. The accounting
must be lockable, which means if you use an accounting software there
must be a function that makes it so that a transaction can not be edited
or removed - to satisfy the demands of endurance in the Swedish
accounting legislation."

I've replied with some more questions regarding where they draw the
line, as I pointed out pretty much everything can be edited or redone if
you want to. But it still seems I'm out of luck using GnuCash for my
company. Is there anything I can do in GnuCash to satisfy the demands of
the Swedish accounting legislation? Otherwise I might have to redo all
my accounting in some other program..

On 01/18/2016 02:15 PM, Mike or Penny Novack wrote:

> On 1/18/2016 4:16 AM, Draug wrote:
>> After some more research I discovered the day treshold option which
>> effectively disables me to make any edits after some day, but
>>> According to Swedish accounting legislation, you are not allowed to
>>> use accounting software that allows you to edit registered
>>> transactions (where they use Excel as an example), which to my
>>> knowledge is quite easy to do in GnuCash, even after reconcilation.
>>> Swedish accounting legislation requires that every mistake is
>>> corrected with another transaction, and that the mistake is left
>>> intact in the records.
>>>
>>> Is there anything that I've missed that makes it possible to use
>>> GnuCash in accordance with Swedish law? I really want to avoid
>>> switching to some proprietary, cloud-based accounting software that
>>> costs $12 a month to use.
>>>
>>> Yours sincerely,
>>> Draug
> No, nothing allows the existence of any software system that can
> satisfy the intent of those legislators who apparently haven't a clue
> about what a competent software person could do (to get around
> imagined protections).
>
> If you are asking whether gnucash can be used in a way that complies
> with this requirement, the answer is yes. To the same extent that old
> fashioned pen and ink on paper accounting can << you know, I could
> always copy over in its entirety a set of bound paper books except for
> altering certain entries and destroy the first set >> You simply don't
> fix things by editing a transaction but by entering a correcting
> transaction (follow the rules).
>
> Tell me something. Does Sweden interpret this law to mean "any
> computerized accounting shall be done on OUR machines (no physical
> access to them) and the data shall be kept on OUR machines (no
> physical access to it).
>
> Look, I used to work for one of the world's largest financials. ONE of
> the things I did a lot of was to write programs to alter the data
> outside of the normal security checks (example -- normally the data
> entered by humans from terminals one at a time and full audit trail
> produced. Because an error was discovered affecting 150,000 accounts
> those need to be corrected,  a correction transaction entered. That
> would be a lot of workers sitting at terminals for lots of weeks. Or
> somebody like me writing a special program to generate that effect.
> Now naturally, I would design that special program so that it ALSO
> produced the same audit trail, looked exactly as if had been done
> normally. but ......
>
> In other words, if the software is running on a machine that I can
> access (alter programs if I wish) and the data is being kept on
> machines that I can access (and trust me, if I can alter the programs,
> encryption, security hashing, etc. will NOT keep me from altering the
> data) then the Swedish legislature is fooling itself. Any large
> Swedish company would have people in its IT shop who could alter the
> data.
>
> Michael
>
> PS: The software being open software only makes it easier (and legal)
> to create an altered program (which gets around the security). Just
> because doing that to proprietary software where you don't have the
> source code is much harder and illegal does not mean can't be done.
> I've wielded tools like "monitors" and "disassemblers" in my day <<
> for perfectly legal purposes, having to alter a program that hadn't
> changed in the previous several decades and the source code lost --
> say never made it from card to disk when all the punch card decks were
> retired >>
>
> _______________________________________________
> gnucash-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
> -----
> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.

_______________________________________________
gnucash-user mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
-----
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Liz
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: GnuCash and Swedish accounting legislation

Liz
On Mon, 18 Jan 2016 21:26:48 +0100
Draug <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I've replied with some more questions regarding where they draw the
> line, as I pointed out pretty much everything can be edited or redone
> if you want to. But it still seems I'm out of luck using GnuCash for
> my company. Is there anything I can do in GnuCash to satisfy the
> demands of the Swedish accounting legislation? Otherwise I might have
> to redo all my accounting in some other program..



Every week, or other period, burn a copy of your data file(s) to a CD-R.
Call the latest one your enduring copy.

Disclaimer: I live in Australia, and if someone makes a stupid law, we
work around it, because that is our culture. This contributes to the
most complex tax system devised as the ATO chases intelligent people
working out ways not to pay their share.

Liz
_______________________________________________
gnucash-user mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
-----
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: GnuCash and Swedish accounting legislation

Mike or Penny Novack-2
On 1/18/2016 3:46 PM, Liz wrote:

> On Mon, 18 Jan 2016 21:26:48 +0100
> Draug <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I've replied with some more questions regarding where they draw the
>> line, as I pointed out pretty much everything can be edited or redone
>> if you want to. But it still seems I'm out of luck using GnuCash for
>> my company. Is there anything I can do in GnuCash to satisfy the
>> demands of the Swedish accounting legislation? Otherwise I might have
>> to redo all my accounting in some other program..
>
>
> Every week, or other period, burn a copy of your data file(s) to a CD-R.
> Call the latest one your enduring copy.
>
> Disclaimer: I live in Australia, and if someone makes a stupid law, we
> work around it, because that is our culture. This contributes to the
> most complex tax system devised as the ATO chases intelligent people
> working out ways not to pay their share.
>
> Liz
Do you understand what Liz is saying. Do you understand the your Swedish
legislators apparently do not know (or are being deceived about) what is
possible and what is not. I am saying that IF a (competent) Swedish
software engineer has physical access to the program and data (physical
access to the machine, the software to be run on it, the data being
stored on it) then he or she COULD alter the data, and that it would be
quite difficult to detect that had been done*.

In other words, there AREN'T any secure accounting packages (in the
sense of a LITERAL reading of the Swedish law). Of course what is
possible that some companies have convinced authorities that "ours is
secure" so there is an authorized list of "compliant computerized
accounting software". OR (and this is perhaps more likely) the law is
not intended to be understood literally. Perhaps it is being interpreted
to mean "secure against alteration by an ordinary user who lacks
advanced software skills".

In THAT case, gnucash would be insecure, because any end user could
alter the data.

But do understand why the gnucash developers aren't putting in the sorts
of password protections, checks against alteration, etc. "to make it
impossible to alter the data" because TO THEM that is not possible (in
the literal sense). After all, if they wrote the software with those
protections it would be pretty obvious how THEY could get around them.

Michael D Novack

* You are almost certainly familiar with "system data" associated with
the files on your computer, yes? Things like "date last changed". Well a
PROGRAM within the computer put that there, not magic. I've never messed
around with this in the small computer operating world so would have to
research how. But in the IBM mainframe operating systems I used to write
under back in my working days, I did know how I could change a file and
have it "labeled" to appear that YOU changed it YESTERDAY. Or I could
take a file last changed by D on 20151231, alter it tonight, but have it
labeled back to "by D on 20151231" << in other words, like it hadn't
been changed >>

A very great deal of practical computer security is based on "ignorance"
<< by which I mean lack of knowledge that would be FAR beyond what is
required to do their jobs >>


_______________________________________________
gnucash-user mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
-----
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
GWB
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: GnuCash and Swedish accounting legislation

GWB
In reply to this post by Liz
Draug,

To echo Liz and Michael, I would be fascinated to see the list of
software that meets the requirements of the Swedish legislation from
the Swedish tax authority itself.  Have you asked them for a list, and
could you share that information with the gnucash mailing list?  I
could send them an email, but my Swedish is not that good.

In any event, you might be able to describe to them what Liz has
explained above (which seems brilliant), and ask them to consider the
end of quarter (or month or year) CD as the enduring copy.  Or do a
version of what investing firms do: produce a yearly enduring copy on
CD, (report) and then produce quarterly revisions on CD.  The
quarterly revisions would be nothing more than the GnuCash file report
with whatever corrections and updates you entered in the the last 3
months.  This gives auditors something to work with, an original and
then corrected copies.

Or, perhaps don't ask, and just do it.  They may tell you the old
Prussian proverb applies, "What is not explicitly allowed is strictly
forbidden".  You can then reply: "It is better to ask forgiveness than
permission".  Or not; I have only worked slightly with US, UK, NZ and
Caribbean accounts, and I'm not an accountant nor a lawyer.  So check
with a few of those who know your jurisdiction.

Being a Swedish citizen, I think you would be entirely justified to
ask the tax authority to supply you the software that meets their
requirements for free.  You could also point out that you have made a
signifigant investment of time in using GnuCash and other financial
software which their legislation has rendered unusable.

It sounds as if Sweden is trying to implement similar requirements as
the Dodd Frank legislation in the United States.  That's too bad.  It
just makes more work for honest people, and rewards those (sometimes
less honest) types who can afford to spend money on superficial
compliance that does little or nothing to improve transparency (and
pretty much the same effect Liz describes with the Australian Taxation
Office).

Gordon



On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Liz <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Mon, 18 Jan 2016 21:26:48 +0100
> Draug <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I've replied with some more questions regarding where they draw the
>> line, as I pointed out pretty much everything can be edited or redone
>> if you want to. But it still seems I'm out of luck using GnuCash for
>> my company. Is there anything I can do in GnuCash to satisfy the
>> demands of the Swedish accounting legislation? Otherwise I might have
>> to redo all my accounting in some other program..
>
>
>
> Every week, or other period, burn a copy of your data file(s) to a CD-R.
> Call the latest one your enduring copy.
>
> Disclaimer: I live in Australia, and if someone makes a stupid law, we
> work around it, because that is our culture. This contributes to the
> most complex tax system devised as the ATO chases intelligent people
> working out ways not to pay their share.
>
> Liz
> _______________________________________________
> gnucash-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
> -----
> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
_______________________________________________
gnucash-user mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
-----
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: GnuCash and Swedish accounting legislation

Draug
Liz, Michael and Gordon,

I fully understand why the law is vague, absurd and hard to interpret if
you have a background in IT. As Michael pointed out, the law should most
likely be interpreted as " "secure against alteration by an ordinary
user who lacks advanced software skills". I'm not defending the Swedish
legislation by any means.

What Liz said about CDs is a good idea, but after looking through the
Swedish Account Standards Boards explanation of what "enduring" is, I'm
not so sure anymore. They state that the transaction must be "locked"
right after it has been recorded, and "locking" it every month, year or
whatever (with burning a CD for example) is not feasible as all records
are "preliminary" until they've been made enduring, and while the
records are preliminary - they are not recorded at all. In short: the
moment I make a payment, the transaction must be recorded and made
enduring that day.

I will contact the Swedish tax authority and ask them for a list of
software that meet the requirements of the Swedish legislation. I will
also try to get some more legal advice from a lawyer.

On 01/19/2016 04:53 AM, GWB wrote:

> Draug,
>
> To echo Liz and Michael, I would be fascinated to see the list of
> software that meets the requirements of the Swedish legislation from
> the Swedish tax authority itself.  Have you asked them for a list, and
> could you share that information with the gnucash mailing list?  I
> could send them an email, but my Swedish is not that good.
>
> In any event, you might be able to describe to them what Liz has
> explained above (which seems brilliant), and ask them to consider the
> end of quarter (or month or year) CD as the enduring copy.  Or do a
> version of what investing firms do: produce a yearly enduring copy on
> CD, (report) and then produce quarterly revisions on CD.  The
> quarterly revisions would be nothing more than the GnuCash file report
> with whatever corrections and updates you entered in the the last 3
> months.  This gives auditors something to work with, an original and
> then corrected copies.
>
> Or, perhaps don't ask, and just do it.  They may tell you the old
> Prussian proverb applies, "What is not explicitly allowed is strictly
> forbidden".  You can then reply: "It is better to ask forgiveness than
> permission".  Or not; I have only worked slightly with US, UK, NZ and
> Caribbean accounts, and I'm not an accountant nor a lawyer.  So check
> with a few of those who know your jurisdiction.
>
> Being a Swedish citizen, I think you would be entirely justified to
> ask the tax authority to supply you the software that meets their
> requirements for free.  You could also point out that you have made a
> signifigant investment of time in using GnuCash and other financial
> software which their legislation has rendered unusable.
>
> It sounds as if Sweden is trying to implement similar requirements as
> the Dodd Frank legislation in the United States.  That's too bad.  It
> just makes more work for honest people, and rewards those (sometimes
> less honest) types who can afford to spend money on superficial
> compliance that does little or nothing to improve transparency (and
> pretty much the same effect Liz describes with the Australian Taxation
> Office).
>
> Gordon
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Liz <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On Mon, 18 Jan 2016 21:26:48 +0100
>> Draug <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> I've replied with some more questions regarding where they draw the
>>> line, as I pointed out pretty much everything can be edited or redone
>>> if you want to. But it still seems I'm out of luck using GnuCash for
>>> my company. Is there anything I can do in GnuCash to satisfy the
>>> demands of the Swedish accounting legislation? Otherwise I might have
>>> to redo all my accounting in some other program..
>>
>>
>> Every week, or other period, burn a copy of your data file(s) to a CD-R.
>> Call the latest one your enduring copy.
>>
>> Disclaimer: I live in Australia, and if someone makes a stupid law, we
>> work around it, because that is our culture. This contributes to the
>> most complex tax system devised as the ATO chases intelligent people
>> working out ways not to pay their share.
>>
>> Liz
>> _______________________________________________
>> gnucash-user mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
>> -----
>> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
>> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
> _______________________________________________
> gnucash-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
> -----
> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.

_______________________________________________
gnucash-user mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
-----
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: GnuCash and Swedish accounting legislation

Pedro Albuquerque
In reply to this post by Liz
Ter, 2016-01-19 às 07:46 +1100, Liz escreveu:

> On Mon, 18 Jan 2016 21:26:48 +0100
> Draug <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > I've replied with some more questions regarding where they draw the
> > line, as I pointed out pretty much everything can be edited or redone
> > if you want to. But it still seems I'm out of luck using GnuCash for
> > my company. Is there anything I can do in GnuCash to satisfy the
> > demands of the Swedish accounting legislation? Otherwise I might have
> > to redo all my accounting in some other program..
>
>
>
> Every week, or other period, burn a copy of your data file(s) to a CD-R.
> Call the latest one your enduring copy.
>
> Disclaimer: I live in Australia, and if someone makes a stupid law, we
> work around it, because that is our culture. This contributes to the
> most complex tax system devised as the ATO chases intelligent people
> working out ways not to pay their share.

I think you Australians, would loose with us Portuguese. Our tax system
is the most complicated ever, and taxes everything, including taxes
already payed.

Anyway, about the topic, here business softwares have to be online with
the tax authority. Almost everything done is automatically registered in
their machines.
So, GC is extremely useful to keep our own private records, but can't be
officially used.

Regards,
Pedro.

>
> Liz
> _______________________________________________
> gnucash-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
> -----
> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.


_______________________________________________
gnucash-user mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
-----
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: GnuCash and Swedish accounting legislation

Larry Evans-3
In reply to this post by Draug
On 01/18/2016 02:18 AM, Draug wrote:

> Hi,
>
> For quite a while I've used GnuCash for the accounting of my company,
> but recently I've come to question if it's legal to use GnuCash for that
> purpose. According to Swedish accounting legislation, you are not
> allowed to use accounting software that allows you to edit registered
> transactions (where they use Excel as an example), which to my knowledge
> is quite easy to do in GnuCash, even after reconcilation. Swedish
> accounting legislation requires that every mistake is corrected with
> another transaction, and that the mistake is left intact in the records.
>
> Is there anything that I've missed that makes it possible to use GnuCash
> in accordance with Swedish law? I really want to avoid switching to some
> proprietary, cloud-based accounting software that costs $12 a month to use.
>
> Yours sincerely,
> Draug

What about making the log files uneditable?  IOW, after each session of
gnucash.  From:

http://www.gnucash.org/docs/v2.6/C/gnucash-guide/basics-backup1.html

which says:

Each time you open and edit a file in GnuCash, GnuCash creates a log
file of changes you have made to your data file. The log file uses a
similar naming format as the backup files: .YYYYMMDDHHMMSS.log. Log
files are not a full backup of your data file - they simply record
changes you have made to the data file in the current GnuCash session.
Wouldn't this satisfy the requirement of:

  Swedish accounting legislation requires that every mistake is
  corrected with another transaction, and that the mistake is left
  intact in the records.

?

-regards,
Larry


_______________________________________________
gnucash-user mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
-----
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: GnuCash and Swedish accounting legislation

Mike or Penny Novack-2
In reply to this post by Pedro Albuquerque
On 1/19/2016 1:32 AM, Pedro Albuquerque wrote:
> Ter, 2016-01-19 às 07:46 +1100, Liz escreveu:
>
> Anyway, about the topic, here business softwares have to be online
> with the tax authority. Almost everything done is automatically
> registered in their machines. So, GC is extremely useful to keep our
> own private records, but can't be officially used. Regards, Pedro.

THAT would be a proper example of "cannot be altered"  << no access to
the programs or data >> THAT is the sort of thing it takes.

It is of course possible (likely even) that the Swedish legislators
meant just "can't be altered by the end user". The problem with that, of
course, is depends entirely on the skill and knowledge limitations of
the end user. We can be wearing multiple hats. For example, were I in
Sweden, and having a business to report for tax purposes, I would be for
that purpose an "end user", so supposedly required to use a software
program such that I could not alter the data. But I also happen to be a
person who has the necessary skills.

Might take a bit of research on the part of our Swedish users. Could
they look up a few businesses that are "software consultants" and ask
what accounting software THEY are allowed to use  since although end
users, also people with the necessary skills to get around any
alteration prevention. Of course possibly the legislation is interpreted
in such a way as to mean "you exceptions to the concept will be trusted
not to do that" << use software with protection against alteration by
ordinary users and not use your abilities to get around that >>

Michael
_______________________________________________
gnucash-user mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
-----
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: GnuCash and Swedish accounting legislation

David Carlson-4
In reply to this post by Draug
On 1/18/2016 10:40 PM, Draug wrote:

> Liz, Michael and Gordon,
>
> I fully understand why the law is vague, absurd and hard to interpret
> if you have a background in IT. As Michael pointed out, the law should
> most likely be interpreted as " "secure against alteration by an
> ordinary user who lacks advanced software skills". I'm not defending
> the Swedish legislation by any means.
>
> What Liz said about CDs is a good idea, but after looking through the
> Swedish Account Standards Boards explanation of what "enduring" is,
> I'm not so sure anymore. They state that the transaction must be
> "locked" right after it has been recorded, and "locking" it every
> month, year or whatever (with burning a CD for example) is not
> feasible as all records are "preliminary" until they've been made
> enduring, and while the records are preliminary - they are not
> recorded at all. In short: the moment I make a payment, the
> transaction must be recorded and made enduring that day.
>
> I will contact the Swedish tax authority and ask them for a list of
> software that meet the requirements of the Swedish legislation. I will
> also try to get some more legal advice from a lawyer.
>
> On 01/19/2016 04:53 AM, GWB wrote:
>> Draug,
>>
>> To echo Liz and Michael, I would be fascinated to see the list of
>> software that meets the requirements of the Swedish legislation from
>> the Swedish tax authority itself.  Have you asked them for a list, and
>> could you share that information with the gnucash mailing list? I
>> could send them an email, but my Swedish is not that good.
>>
>> In any event, you might be able to describe to them what Liz has
>> explained above (which seems brilliant), and ask them to consider the
>> end of quarter (or month or year) CD as the enduring copy.  Or do a
>> version of what investing firms do: produce a yearly enduring copy on
>> CD, (report) and then produce quarterly revisions on CD.  The
>> quarterly revisions would be nothing more than the GnuCash file report
>> with whatever corrections and updates you entered in the the last 3
>> months.  This gives auditors something to work with, an original and
>> then corrected copies.
>>
>> Or, perhaps don't ask, and just do it.  They may tell you the old
>> Prussian proverb applies, "What is not explicitly allowed is strictly
>> forbidden".  You can then reply: "It is better to ask forgiveness than
>> permission".  Or not; I have only worked slightly with US, UK, NZ and
>> Caribbean accounts, and I'm not an accountant nor a lawyer.  So check
>> with a few of those who know your jurisdiction.
>>
>> Being a Swedish citizen, I think you would be entirely justified to
>> ask the tax authority to supply you the software that meets their
>> requirements for free.  You could also point out that you have made a
>> signifigant investment of time in using GnuCash and other financial
>> software which their legislation has rendered unusable.
>>
>> It sounds as if Sweden is trying to implement similar requirements as
>> the Dodd Frank legislation in the United States.  That's too bad.  It
>> just makes more work for honest people, and rewards those (sometimes
>> less honest) types who can afford to spend money on superficial
>> compliance that does little or nothing to improve transparency (and
>> pretty much the same effect Liz describes with the Australian Taxation
>> Office).
>>
>> Gordon
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Liz <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 18 Jan 2016 21:26:48 +0100
>>> Draug <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I've replied with some more questions regarding where they draw the
>>>> line, as I pointed out pretty much everything can be edited or redone
>>>> if you want to. But it still seems I'm out of luck using GnuCash for
>>>> my company. Is there anything I can do in GnuCash to satisfy the
>>>> demands of the Swedish accounting legislation? Otherwise I might have
>>>> to redo all my accounting in some other program..
>>>
>>>
>>> Every week, or other period, burn a copy of your data file(s) to a
>>> CD-R.
>>> Call the latest one your enduring copy.
>>>
>>> Disclaimer: I live in Australia, and if someone makes a stupid law, we
>>> work around it, because that is our culture. This contributes to the
>>> most complex tax system devised as the ATO chases intelligent people
>>> working out ways not to pay their share.
>>>
>>> Liz
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> gnucash-user mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
>>> -----
>>> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
>>> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>> _______________________________________________
>> gnucash-user mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
>> -----
>> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
>> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>
> _______________________________________________
> gnucash-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
> -----
> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>

I have not seen in this thread any reference to the features that some
professional programs have of defining various levels of access to
records to various users which make it look like Data Entry Clerks are
not allowed to do do anything dangerous, or revision tracking methods
that appear to create an audit trail.  These features create an illusion
that those programs are "Secure".

However, as Mike and others have pointed out, even these features can be
circumvented by knowledgeable programmers/hackers/spies/governments.

David C
_______________________________________________
gnucash-user mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
-----
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: GnuCash and Swedish accounting legislation

Draug
I have come to realize that GnuCash can't be used according to the
Swedish Account Standards Boards interpretation of the Swedish
accounting legislation, which unfortunately forces me to use some
proprietary alternative that will increase my overhead expenses.
Hopefully the lawmakers will come to understand technology some day.

On 01/20/2016 02:24 AM, David Carlson wrote:

> On 1/18/2016 10:40 PM, Draug wrote:
>> Liz, Michael and Gordon,
>>
>> I fully understand why the law is vague, absurd and hard to interpret
>> if you have a background in IT. As Michael pointed out, the law
>> should most likely be interpreted as " "secure against alteration by
>> an ordinary user who lacks advanced software skills". I'm not
>> defending the Swedish legislation by any means.
>>
>> What Liz said about CDs is a good idea, but after looking through the
>> Swedish Account Standards Boards explanation of what "enduring" is,
>> I'm not so sure anymore. They state that the transaction must be
>> "locked" right after it has been recorded, and "locking" it every
>> month, year or whatever (with burning a CD for example) is not
>> feasible as all records are "preliminary" until they've been made
>> enduring, and while the records are preliminary - they are not
>> recorded at all. In short: the moment I make a payment, the
>> transaction must be recorded and made enduring that day.
>>
>> I will contact the Swedish tax authority and ask them for a list of
>> software that meet the requirements of the Swedish legislation. I
>> will also try to get some more legal advice from a lawyer.
>>
>> On 01/19/2016 04:53 AM, GWB wrote:
>>> Draug,
>>>
>>> To echo Liz and Michael, I would be fascinated to see the list of
>>> software that meets the requirements of the Swedish legislation from
>>> the Swedish tax authority itself.  Have you asked them for a list, and
>>> could you share that information with the gnucash mailing list? I
>>> could send them an email, but my Swedish is not that good.
>>>
>>> In any event, you might be able to describe to them what Liz has
>>> explained above (which seems brilliant), and ask them to consider the
>>> end of quarter (or month or year) CD as the enduring copy.  Or do a
>>> version of what investing firms do: produce a yearly enduring copy on
>>> CD, (report) and then produce quarterly revisions on CD.  The
>>> quarterly revisions would be nothing more than the GnuCash file report
>>> with whatever corrections and updates you entered in the the last 3
>>> months.  This gives auditors something to work with, an original and
>>> then corrected copies.
>>>
>>> Or, perhaps don't ask, and just do it.  They may tell you the old
>>> Prussian proverb applies, "What is not explicitly allowed is strictly
>>> forbidden".  You can then reply: "It is better to ask forgiveness than
>>> permission".  Or not; I have only worked slightly with US, UK, NZ and
>>> Caribbean accounts, and I'm not an accountant nor a lawyer. So check
>>> with a few of those who know your jurisdiction.
>>>
>>> Being a Swedish citizen, I think you would be entirely justified to
>>> ask the tax authority to supply you the software that meets their
>>> requirements for free.  You could also point out that you have made a
>>> signifigant investment of time in using GnuCash and other financial
>>> software which their legislation has rendered unusable.
>>>
>>> It sounds as if Sweden is trying to implement similar requirements as
>>> the Dodd Frank legislation in the United States.  That's too bad.  It
>>> just makes more work for honest people, and rewards those (sometimes
>>> less honest) types who can afford to spend money on superficial
>>> compliance that does little or nothing to improve transparency (and
>>> pretty much the same effect Liz describes with the Australian Taxation
>>> Office).
>>>
>>> Gordon
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Liz <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 18 Jan 2016 21:26:48 +0100
>>>> Draug <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I've replied with some more questions regarding where they draw the
>>>>> line, as I pointed out pretty much everything can be edited or redone
>>>>> if you want to. But it still seems I'm out of luck using GnuCash for
>>>>> my company. Is there anything I can do in GnuCash to satisfy the
>>>>> demands of the Swedish accounting legislation? Otherwise I might have
>>>>> to redo all my accounting in some other program..
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Every week, or other period, burn a copy of your data file(s) to a
>>>> CD-R.
>>>> Call the latest one your enduring copy.
>>>>
>>>> Disclaimer: I live in Australia, and if someone makes a stupid law, we
>>>> work around it, because that is our culture. This contributes to the
>>>> most complex tax system devised as the ATO chases intelligent people
>>>> working out ways not to pay their share.
>>>>
>>>> Liz
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> gnucash-user mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
>>>> -----
>>>> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
>>>> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> gnucash-user mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
>>> -----
>>> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
>>> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gnucash-user mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
>> -----
>> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
>> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>>
>
> I have not seen in this thread any reference to the features that some
> professional programs have of defining various levels of access to
> records to various users which make it look like Data Entry Clerks are
> not allowed to do do anything dangerous, or revision tracking methods
> that appear to create an audit trail. These features create an
> illusion that those programs are "Secure".
>
> However, as Mike and others have pointed out, even these features can
> be circumvented by knowledgeable programmers/hackers/spies/governments.
>
> David C
> _______________________________________________
> gnucash-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
> -----
> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.

_______________________________________________
gnucash-user mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
-----
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: GnuCash and Swedish accounting legislation

Colin Law
On 23 January 2016 at 09:46, Draug <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I have come to realize that GnuCash can't be used according to the Swedish
> Account Standards Boards interpretation of the Swedish accounting
> legislation, which unfortunately forces me to use some proprietary
> alternative that will increase my overhead expenses. Hopefully the lawmakers
> will come to understand technology some day.

I believe I remember some time ago a thread discussing this and it was
decided that it would be worthwhile to have an option on creating an
accounts file to say that modifications are not permitted (or
something like that at least), in the hope this would meet the Swedish
requirements.  I don't know whether a feature request was actually
submitted.

Colin

>
>
> On 01/20/2016 02:24 AM, David Carlson wrote:
>>
>> On 1/18/2016 10:40 PM, Draug wrote:
>>>
>>> Liz, Michael and Gordon,
>>>
>>> I fully understand why the law is vague, absurd and hard to interpret if
>>> you have a background in IT. As Michael pointed out, the law should most
>>> likely be interpreted as " "secure against alteration by an ordinary user
>>> who lacks advanced software skills". I'm not defending the Swedish
>>> legislation by any means.
>>>
>>> What Liz said about CDs is a good idea, but after looking through the
>>> Swedish Account Standards Boards explanation of what "enduring" is, I'm not
>>> so sure anymore. They state that the transaction must be "locked" right
>>> after it has been recorded, and "locking" it every month, year or whatever
>>> (with burning a CD for example) is not feasible as all records are
>>> "preliminary" until they've been made enduring, and while the records are
>>> preliminary - they are not recorded at all. In short: the moment I make a
>>> payment, the transaction must be recorded and made enduring that day.
>>>
>>> I will contact the Swedish tax authority and ask them for a list of
>>> software that meet the requirements of the Swedish legislation. I will also
>>> try to get some more legal advice from a lawyer.
>>>
>>> On 01/19/2016 04:53 AM, GWB wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Draug,
>>>>
>>>> To echo Liz and Michael, I would be fascinated to see the list of
>>>> software that meets the requirements of the Swedish legislation from
>>>> the Swedish tax authority itself.  Have you asked them for a list, and
>>>> could you share that information with the gnucash mailing list? I
>>>> could send them an email, but my Swedish is not that good.
>>>>
>>>> In any event, you might be able to describe to them what Liz has
>>>> explained above (which seems brilliant), and ask them to consider the
>>>> end of quarter (or month or year) CD as the enduring copy.  Or do a
>>>> version of what investing firms do: produce a yearly enduring copy on
>>>> CD, (report) and then produce quarterly revisions on CD.  The
>>>> quarterly revisions would be nothing more than the GnuCash file report
>>>> with whatever corrections and updates you entered in the the last 3
>>>> months.  This gives auditors something to work with, an original and
>>>> then corrected copies.
>>>>
>>>> Or, perhaps don't ask, and just do it.  They may tell you the old
>>>> Prussian proverb applies, "What is not explicitly allowed is strictly
>>>> forbidden".  You can then reply: "It is better to ask forgiveness than
>>>> permission".  Or not; I have only worked slightly with US, UK, NZ and
>>>> Caribbean accounts, and I'm not an accountant nor a lawyer. So check
>>>> with a few of those who know your jurisdiction.
>>>>
>>>> Being a Swedish citizen, I think you would be entirely justified to
>>>> ask the tax authority to supply you the software that meets their
>>>> requirements for free.  You could also point out that you have made a
>>>> signifigant investment of time in using GnuCash and other financial
>>>> software which their legislation has rendered unusable.
>>>>
>>>> It sounds as if Sweden is trying to implement similar requirements as
>>>> the Dodd Frank legislation in the United States.  That's too bad.  It
>>>> just makes more work for honest people, and rewards those (sometimes
>>>> less honest) types who can afford to spend money on superficial
>>>> compliance that does little or nothing to improve transparency (and
>>>> pretty much the same effect Liz describes with the Australian Taxation
>>>> Office).
>>>>
>>>> Gordon
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Liz <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 18 Jan 2016 21:26:48 +0100
>>>>> Draug <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I've replied with some more questions regarding where they draw the
>>>>>> line, as I pointed out pretty much everything can be edited or redone
>>>>>> if you want to. But it still seems I'm out of luck using GnuCash for
>>>>>> my company. Is there anything I can do in GnuCash to satisfy the
>>>>>> demands of the Swedish accounting legislation? Otherwise I might have
>>>>>> to redo all my accounting in some other program..
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Every week, or other period, burn a copy of your data file(s) to a
>>>>> CD-R.
>>>>> Call the latest one your enduring copy.
>>>>>
>>>>> Disclaimer: I live in Australia, and if someone makes a stupid law, we
>>>>> work around it, because that is our culture. This contributes to the
>>>>> most complex tax system devised as the ATO chases intelligent people
>>>>> working out ways not to pay their share.
>>>>>
>>>>> Liz
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> gnucash-user mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
>>>>> -----
>>>>> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
>>>>> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> gnucash-user mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
>>>> -----
>>>> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
>>>> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> gnucash-user mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
>>> -----
>>> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
>>> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>>>
>>
>> I have not seen in this thread any reference to the features that some
>> professional programs have of defining various levels of access to records
>> to various users which make it look like Data Entry Clerks are not allowed
>> to do do anything dangerous, or revision tracking methods that appear to
>> create an audit trail. These features create an illusion that those programs
>> are "Secure".
>>
>> However, as Mike and others have pointed out, even these features can be
>> circumvented by knowledgeable programmers/hackers/spies/governments.
>>
>> David C
>> _______________________________________________
>> gnucash-user mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
>> -----
>> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
>> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> gnucash-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
> -----
> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
_______________________________________________
gnucash-user mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
-----
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: GnuCash and Swedish accounting legislation

Draug
Sounds like a reasonable alternative that probably would meet the
requirements of our legislation, as earlier stated, it's probably
interpreted in the way that a "normal" end-user should not be able to
edit transactions directly in the program. I will see to submitting a
feature request, and maybe try to learn C myself.

On 01/23/2016 10:56 AM, Colin Law wrote:

> On 23 January 2016 at 09:46, Draug <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I have come to realize that GnuCash can't be used according to the Swedish
>> Account Standards Boards interpretation of the Swedish accounting
>> legislation, which unfortunately forces me to use some proprietary
>> alternative that will increase my overhead expenses. Hopefully the lawmakers
>> will come to understand technology some day.
> I believe I remember some time ago a thread discussing this and it was
> decided that it would be worthwhile to have an option on creating an
> accounts file to say that modifications are not permitted (or
> something like that at least), in the hope this would meet the Swedish
> requirements.  I don't know whether a feature request was actually
> submitted.
>
> Colin
>
>>
>> On 01/20/2016 02:24 AM, David Carlson wrote:
>>> On 1/18/2016 10:40 PM, Draug wrote:
>>>> Liz, Michael and Gordon,
>>>>
>>>> I fully understand why the law is vague, absurd and hard to interpret if
>>>> you have a background in IT. As Michael pointed out, the law should most
>>>> likely be interpreted as " "secure against alteration by an ordinary user
>>>> who lacks advanced software skills". I'm not defending the Swedish
>>>> legislation by any means.
>>>>
>>>> What Liz said about CDs is a good idea, but after looking through the
>>>> Swedish Account Standards Boards explanation of what "enduring" is, I'm not
>>>> so sure anymore. They state that the transaction must be "locked" right
>>>> after it has been recorded, and "locking" it every month, year or whatever
>>>> (with burning a CD for example) is not feasible as all records are
>>>> "preliminary" until they've been made enduring, and while the records are
>>>> preliminary - they are not recorded at all. In short: the moment I make a
>>>> payment, the transaction must be recorded and made enduring that day.
>>>>
>>>> I will contact the Swedish tax authority and ask them for a list of
>>>> software that meet the requirements of the Swedish legislation. I will also
>>>> try to get some more legal advice from a lawyer.
>>>>
>>>> On 01/19/2016 04:53 AM, GWB wrote:
>>>>> Draug,
>>>>>
>>>>> To echo Liz and Michael, I would be fascinated to see the list of
>>>>> software that meets the requirements of the Swedish legislation from
>>>>> the Swedish tax authority itself.  Have you asked them for a list, and
>>>>> could you share that information with the gnucash mailing list? I
>>>>> could send them an email, but my Swedish is not that good.
>>>>>
>>>>> In any event, you might be able to describe to them what Liz has
>>>>> explained above (which seems brilliant), and ask them to consider the
>>>>> end of quarter (or month or year) CD as the enduring copy.  Or do a
>>>>> version of what investing firms do: produce a yearly enduring copy on
>>>>> CD, (report) and then produce quarterly revisions on CD.  The
>>>>> quarterly revisions would be nothing more than the GnuCash file report
>>>>> with whatever corrections and updates you entered in the the last 3
>>>>> months.  This gives auditors something to work with, an original and
>>>>> then corrected copies.
>>>>>
>>>>> Or, perhaps don't ask, and just do it.  They may tell you the old
>>>>> Prussian proverb applies, "What is not explicitly allowed is strictly
>>>>> forbidden".  You can then reply: "It is better to ask forgiveness than
>>>>> permission".  Or not; I have only worked slightly with US, UK, NZ and
>>>>> Caribbean accounts, and I'm not an accountant nor a lawyer. So check
>>>>> with a few of those who know your jurisdiction.
>>>>>
>>>>> Being a Swedish citizen, I think you would be entirely justified to
>>>>> ask the tax authority to supply you the software that meets their
>>>>> requirements for free.  You could also point out that you have made a
>>>>> signifigant investment of time in using GnuCash and other financial
>>>>> software which their legislation has rendered unusable.
>>>>>
>>>>> It sounds as if Sweden is trying to implement similar requirements as
>>>>> the Dodd Frank legislation in the United States.  That's too bad.  It
>>>>> just makes more work for honest people, and rewards those (sometimes
>>>>> less honest) types who can afford to spend money on superficial
>>>>> compliance that does little or nothing to improve transparency (and
>>>>> pretty much the same effect Liz describes with the Australian Taxation
>>>>> Office).
>>>>>
>>>>> Gordon
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Liz <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 18 Jan 2016 21:26:48 +0100
>>>>>> Draug <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've replied with some more questions regarding where they draw the
>>>>>>> line, as I pointed out pretty much everything can be edited or redone
>>>>>>> if you want to. But it still seems I'm out of luck using GnuCash for
>>>>>>> my company. Is there anything I can do in GnuCash to satisfy the
>>>>>>> demands of the Swedish accounting legislation? Otherwise I might have
>>>>>>> to redo all my accounting in some other program..
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Every week, or other period, burn a copy of your data file(s) to a
>>>>>> CD-R.
>>>>>> Call the latest one your enduring copy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Disclaimer: I live in Australia, and if someone makes a stupid law, we
>>>>>> work around it, because that is our culture. This contributes to the
>>>>>> most complex tax system devised as the ATO chases intelligent people
>>>>>> working out ways not to pay their share.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Liz
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> gnucash-user mailing list
>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
>>>>>> -----
>>>>>> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
>>>>>> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> gnucash-user mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
>>>>> -----
>>>>> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
>>>>> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> gnucash-user mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
>>>> -----
>>>> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
>>>> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>>>>
>>> I have not seen in this thread any reference to the features that some
>>> professional programs have of defining various levels of access to records
>>> to various users which make it look like Data Entry Clerks are not allowed
>>> to do do anything dangerous, or revision tracking methods that appear to
>>> create an audit trail. These features create an illusion that those programs
>>> are "Secure".
>>>
>>> However, as Mike and others have pointed out, even these features can be
>>> circumvented by knowledgeable programmers/hackers/spies/governments.
>>>
>>> David C
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> gnucash-user mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
>>> -----
>>> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
>>> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gnucash-user mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
>> -----
>> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
>> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.

_______________________________________________
gnucash-user mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
-----
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: GnuCash and Swedish accounting legislation

Colin Law
In reply to this post by Colin Law
On 23 January 2016 at 09:56, Colin Law <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 23 January 2016 at 09:46, Draug <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I have come to realize that GnuCash can't be used according to the Swedish
>> Account Standards Boards interpretation of the Swedish accounting
>> legislation, which unfortunately forces me to use some proprietary
>> alternative that will increase my overhead expenses. Hopefully the lawmakers
>> will come to understand technology some day.
>
> I believe I remember some time ago a thread discussing this and it was
> decided that it would be worthwhile to have an option on creating an
> accounts file to say that modifications are not permitted (or
> something like that at least), in the hope this would meet the Swedish
> requirements.  I don't know whether a feature request was actually
> submitted.

Found it
http://gnucash.1415818.n4.nabble.com/Disable-editing-of-transactions-is-it-possible-td3222086.html

Colin

>
> Colin
>
>>
>>
>> On 01/20/2016 02:24 AM, David Carlson wrote:
>>>
>>> On 1/18/2016 10:40 PM, Draug wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Liz, Michael and Gordon,
>>>>
>>>> I fully understand why the law is vague, absurd and hard to interpret if
>>>> you have a background in IT. As Michael pointed out, the law should most
>>>> likely be interpreted as " "secure against alteration by an ordinary user
>>>> who lacks advanced software skills". I'm not defending the Swedish
>>>> legislation by any means.
>>>>
>>>> What Liz said about CDs is a good idea, but after looking through the
>>>> Swedish Account Standards Boards explanation of what "enduring" is, I'm not
>>>> so sure anymore. They state that the transaction must be "locked" right
>>>> after it has been recorded, and "locking" it every month, year or whatever
>>>> (with burning a CD for example) is not feasible as all records are
>>>> "preliminary" until they've been made enduring, and while the records are
>>>> preliminary - they are not recorded at all. In short: the moment I make a
>>>> payment, the transaction must be recorded and made enduring that day.
>>>>
>>>> I will contact the Swedish tax authority and ask them for a list of
>>>> software that meet the requirements of the Swedish legislation. I will also
>>>> try to get some more legal advice from a lawyer.
>>>>
>>>> On 01/19/2016 04:53 AM, GWB wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Draug,
>>>>>
>>>>> To echo Liz and Michael, I would be fascinated to see the list of
>>>>> software that meets the requirements of the Swedish legislation from
>>>>> the Swedish tax authority itself.  Have you asked them for a list, and
>>>>> could you share that information with the gnucash mailing list? I
>>>>> could send them an email, but my Swedish is not that good.
>>>>>
>>>>> In any event, you might be able to describe to them what Liz has
>>>>> explained above (which seems brilliant), and ask them to consider the
>>>>> end of quarter (or month or year) CD as the enduring copy.  Or do a
>>>>> version of what investing firms do: produce a yearly enduring copy on
>>>>> CD, (report) and then produce quarterly revisions on CD.  The
>>>>> quarterly revisions would be nothing more than the GnuCash file report
>>>>> with whatever corrections and updates you entered in the the last 3
>>>>> months.  This gives auditors something to work with, an original and
>>>>> then corrected copies.
>>>>>
>>>>> Or, perhaps don't ask, and just do it.  They may tell you the old
>>>>> Prussian proverb applies, "What is not explicitly allowed is strictly
>>>>> forbidden".  You can then reply: "It is better to ask forgiveness than
>>>>> permission".  Or not; I have only worked slightly with US, UK, NZ and
>>>>> Caribbean accounts, and I'm not an accountant nor a lawyer. So check
>>>>> with a few of those who know your jurisdiction.
>>>>>
>>>>> Being a Swedish citizen, I think you would be entirely justified to
>>>>> ask the tax authority to supply you the software that meets their
>>>>> requirements for free.  You could also point out that you have made a
>>>>> signifigant investment of time in using GnuCash and other financial
>>>>> software which their legislation has rendered unusable.
>>>>>
>>>>> It sounds as if Sweden is trying to implement similar requirements as
>>>>> the Dodd Frank legislation in the United States.  That's too bad.  It
>>>>> just makes more work for honest people, and rewards those (sometimes
>>>>> less honest) types who can afford to spend money on superficial
>>>>> compliance that does little or nothing to improve transparency (and
>>>>> pretty much the same effect Liz describes with the Australian Taxation
>>>>> Office).
>>>>>
>>>>> Gordon
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Liz <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, 18 Jan 2016 21:26:48 +0100
>>>>>> Draug <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've replied with some more questions regarding where they draw the
>>>>>>> line, as I pointed out pretty much everything can be edited or redone
>>>>>>> if you want to. But it still seems I'm out of luck using GnuCash for
>>>>>>> my company. Is there anything I can do in GnuCash to satisfy the
>>>>>>> demands of the Swedish accounting legislation? Otherwise I might have
>>>>>>> to redo all my accounting in some other program..
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Every week, or other period, burn a copy of your data file(s) to a
>>>>>> CD-R.
>>>>>> Call the latest one your enduring copy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Disclaimer: I live in Australia, and if someone makes a stupid law, we
>>>>>> work around it, because that is our culture. This contributes to the
>>>>>> most complex tax system devised as the ATO chases intelligent people
>>>>>> working out ways not to pay their share.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Liz
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> gnucash-user mailing list
>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
>>>>>> -----
>>>>>> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
>>>>>> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> gnucash-user mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
>>>>> -----
>>>>> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
>>>>> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> gnucash-user mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
>>>> -----
>>>> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
>>>> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I have not seen in this thread any reference to the features that some
>>> professional programs have of defining various levels of access to records
>>> to various users which make it look like Data Entry Clerks are not allowed
>>> to do do anything dangerous, or revision tracking methods that appear to
>>> create an audit trail. These features create an illusion that those programs
>>> are "Secure".
>>>
>>> However, as Mike and others have pointed out, even these features can be
>>> circumvented by knowledgeable programmers/hackers/spies/governments.
>>>
>>> David C
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> gnucash-user mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
>>> -----
>>> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
>>> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gnucash-user mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
>> -----
>> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
>> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
_______________________________________________
gnucash-user mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
-----
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: GnuCash and Swedish accounting legislation

Mike or Penny Novack-2
In reply to this post by Draug
On 1/23/2016 4:46 AM, Draug wrote:
> I have come to realize that GnuCash can't be used according to the
> Swedish Account Standards Boards interpretation of the Swedish
> accounting legislation, which unfortunately forces me to use some
> proprietary alternative that will increase my overhead expenses.
> Hopefully the lawmakers will come to understand technology some day.
But I think you are still not understanding what some of us are saying.

WHAT "proprietary software alternative" (that you would buy and run on
your computer) do you think I, for one, would not be able to alter?

What exactly is the Swedish Standard Board saying? That the software has
only to be secure against LEGAL tampering? << by the usual license
agreements for proprietary software not even legal for me to look at the
software (disassemble it), run under control of a monitor to find
exactly where it does things like password checking, etc. ---- people
like myself can hand edit machine language >>

The problem with gnucash (with regard to Swedish regulations) would be
that no special skills required to alter entries. Can be done WITHOUT
messing with the program, editing data backups and then reloading, etc.
<< BTW, that last might not even be illegal >>

Michael D Novack
_______________________________________________
gnucash-user mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
-----
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
12