[GNC-dev] Interest

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[GNC-dev] Interest

Hamidreza Jafari
Hello,

I use GnuCash mostly for personal finance and use its basic features, that's
why I have not tried it completely with all its capabilities. When I decided
to translate I had no idea I would encounter parts of it designed in specific
doctrines. This is one such string that paused my for a while:

Enter the annual interest rate in percent. Accepts values from 0.001 - 100.
The Mortgage Assistant does not support zero-interest loans.

Although it is possible to set up zero interest business using extra effort it
is better that the tool can be used at a policy level. Historical views on the
subject are clear. It is true that Islam (which was referred to as Sharia)
takes sides about it, it is not the only one contending. There are some issues
in life that are not a matter of voting simply because of limited capacity of
everyday person.

It is not clear to me if there are some other parts in GnuCash that have been
designed in similar ideas. I would like it to be accepting of the moral side
by allowing interest-free transactions (I currently suffice to this level of
goodness advocacy). I hope it is designed and implemented in such a way that
extension is possible if not a simple refactoring can do the job.

What's the situation?

Hamid


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Re: [GNC-dev] Interest

Geert Janssens-4
Op dinsdag 11 december 2018 13:05:02 CET schreef Hamidreza Jafari:

> Hello,
>
> I use GnuCash mostly for personal finance and use its basic features, that's
> why I have not tried it completely with all its capabilities. When I
> decided to translate I had no idea I would encounter parts of it designed
> in specific doctrines. This is one such string that paused my for a while:
>
> Enter the annual interest rate in percent. Accepts values from 0.001 - 100.
> The Mortgage Assistant does not support zero-interest loans.
>
> Although it is possible to set up zero interest business using extra effort
> it is better that the tool can be used at a policy level. Historical views
> on the subject are clear. It is true that Islam (which was referred to as
> Sharia) takes sides about it, it is not the only one contending. There are
> some issues in life that are not a matter of voting simply because of
> limited capacity of everyday person.
>
> It is not clear to me if there are some other parts in GnuCash that have
> been designed in similar ideas. I would like it to be accepting of the
> moral side by allowing interest-free transactions (I currently suffice to
> this level of goodness advocacy). I hope it is designed and implemented in
> such a way that extension is possible if not a simple refactoring can do
> the job.
>
> What's the situation?
>

Well, as John pointed out you can set up an interest free loan directly as a
scheduled transaction. The only difference between an ordinary scheduled
transaction and what the mortgage repayment tool offers is a complex interest
calculation. Other than that it will also just create a schedule of future
transactions. So if there's no complicated interest calculation I would think
a normal scheduled transaction can accomplish the same thing.

I don't see what else you would expect as "features" of an interest free loan
?

Regards,

Geert


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Re: [GNC-dev] Interest

Martin Mainka
In reply to this post by Hamidreza Jafari
Am 12/11/2018 um 8:05 PM schrieb Hamidreza Jafari:

> Hello,
>
> I use GnuCash mostly for personal finance and use its basic features, that's
> why I have not tried it completely with all its capabilities. When I decided
> to translate I had no idea I would encounter parts of it designed in specific
> doctrines. This is one such string that paused my for a while:
>
> Enter the annual interest rate in percent. Accepts values from 0.001 - 100.
> The Mortgage Assistant does not support zero-interest loans.
>
> Although it is possible to set up zero interest business using extra effort it
> is better that the tool can be used at a policy level. Historical views on the
> subject are clear. It is true that Islam (which was referred to as Sharia)
> takes sides about it, it is not the only one contending. There are some issues
> in life that are not a matter of voting simply because of limited capacity of
> everyday person.
>
> It is not clear to me if there are some other parts in GnuCash that have been
> designed in similar ideas. I would like it to be accepting of the moral side
> by allowing interest-free transactions (I currently suffice to this level of
> goodness advocacy). I hope it is designed and implemented in such a way that
> extension is possible if not a simple refactoring can do the job.
>
> What's the situation?
>
> Hamid
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> gnucash-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel

As far as i know is the interest calculation just a Help. I am able to
make a Account of type Liability for example credit to xxx, and put the
sum of the credit. The same i can book repayment onto this account. If
the account is empty the credit is done. No need of changes for someone
that doesn't need complicated interest calculation.

Martin

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Re: [GNC-dev] Interest

Michael or Penny Novack
In reply to this post by Hamidreza Jafari
On 12/11/2018 7:05 AM, Hamidreza Jafari wrote:

>
> Enter the annual interest rate in percent. Accepts values from 0.001 - 100.
> The Mortgage Assistant does not support zero-interest loans.

> What's the situation?
>
> Hamid

Needed for more than just Islam BUT perhaps this belongs in the "user"
discussion as maybe no programming involved.

You would need/use the "mortgage assistant" only for an amortizing loan
WITH interest. Just because you might be thinking of a loan as for the
same purpose as a mortgage (buying a house, etc.) does not make it one
as the term is being used in gnucash.

Put your question on the other list as a "how do I do in gnucash"
spelling out ALL of the conditions of this loan. I'm not a Muslim but do
have an understanding of some of the forms of "no interest" loans and so
understand that while no interest MAY be conditions of "profit sharing"
if the property involved is sold before the loan paid off. Or in the
condition of losses if not forbidden as "iron sheep" contracts << that's
just to show you I do know something about traditional societies >>

Michael D Novack


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Re: [GNC-dev] Interest

Frank H. Ellenberger-3
Hello Michael,

Am 11.12.18 um 16:32 schrieb Michael or Penny Novack:

> On 12/11/2018 7:05 AM, Hamidreza Jafari wrote:
>
>>
>> Enter the annual interest rate in percent. Accepts values from 0.001 -
>> 100.
>> The Mortgage Assistant does not support zero-interest loans.
>
>> What's the situation?
>>
>> Hamid
>
> Needed for more than just Islam BUT perhaps this belongs in the "user"
> discussion as maybe no programming involved.

If one of our translators comes up with such a question, there might -
not must - something be suboptimal with our MsgIds, their documentation
or our user doocumentation.

> You would need/use the "mortgage assistant" only for an amortizing loan
> WITH interest. Just because you might be thinking of a loan as for the
> same purpose as a mortgage (buying a house, etc.) does not make it one
> as the term is being used in gnucash.

I would go further than Hamid. If you see the deposit facility rate at
https://www.ecb.europa.eu/stats/policy_and_exchange_rates/key_ecb_interest_rates/html/index.en.html

it is time to drop the restriction and allow zero and negative interest
rates.

> Put your question on the other list as a "how do I do in gnucash"
> spelling out ALL of the conditions of this loan. I'm not a Muslim but do
> have an understanding of some of the forms of "no interest" loans and so
> understand that while no interest MAY be conditions of "profit sharing"
> if the property involved is sold before the loan paid off. Or in the
> condition of losses if not forbidden as "iron sheep" contracts << that's
> just to show you I do know something about traditional societies >>
>
> Michael D Novack

~Frank

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Re: [GNC-dev] Interest

John Ralls-2


> On Dec 11, 2018, at 1:11 PM, Frank H. Ellenberger <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hello Michael,
> I would go further than Hamid. If you see the deposit facility rate at
> https://www.ecb.europa.eu/stats/policy_and_exchange_rates/key_ecb_interest_rates/html/index.en.html
>
> it is time to drop the restriction and allow zero and negative interest
> rates.

Those rates are for banks borrowing from the ECB. They're not available to anyone likely to be using GnuCash.

Regards,
John Ralls

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Re: [GNC-dev] Interest

Hamidreza Jafari
In reply to this post by Frank H. Ellenberger-3
I didn't follow Michael D Novack. Though I can clarify on some issues that
were mentioned.

1 - Translation is not complete, my usage of the app is not exhaustive to try
its ins and outs. I questioned if GnuCash is built with the mindset of priming
interest over non-interest. The string I mentioned has either redundant
information or contradicting information.

2 - I do not intend to draw lines but rather to question the line itself. That
way agreement is facilitated or disagreement shows its hidden points of
conflict.

3 - If GnuCash has a part dedicated to loans, a user would be happy to have
all info about his loans under a Loans section rather than keeping notes to
himself in roundabout ways. Accounting is a form of bookkeeping but usage of
computing machines has provided some nifty features not possible with books. I
talked about extending and refactoring to provide support if missing. This is
about development not usage.

Hamid

On چهارشنبه ۱۲ دسامبر ۲۰۱۸ ۰:۴۱:۰۸ (+0330) Frank H. Ellenberger wrote:

> Hello Michael,
>
> Am 11.12.18 um 16:32 schrieb Michael or Penny Novack:
> > On 12/11/2018 7:05 AM, Hamidreza Jafari wrote:
> >> Enter the annual interest rate in percent. Accepts values from 0.001 -
> >> 100.
> >> The Mortgage Assistant does not support zero-interest loans.
> >>
> >> What's the situation?
> >>
> >> Hamid
> >
> > Needed for more than just Islam BUT perhaps this belongs in the "user"
> > discussion as maybe no programming involved.
>
> If one of our translators comes up with such a question, there might -
> not must - something be suboptimal with our MsgIds, their documentation
> or our user doocumentation.
>
> > You would need/use the "mortgage assistant" only for an amortizing loan
> > WITH interest. Just because you might be thinking of a loan as for the
> > same purpose as a mortgage (buying a house, etc.) does not make it one
> > as the term is being used in gnucash.
>
> I would go further than Hamid. If you see the deposit facility rate at
> https://www.ecb.europa.eu/stats/policy_and_exchange_rates/key_ecb_interest_r
> ates/html/index.en.html
>
> it is time to drop the restriction and allow zero and negative interest
> rates.
>
> > Put your question on the other list as a "how do I do in gnucash"
> > spelling out ALL of the conditions of this loan. I'm not a Muslim but do
> > have an understanding of some of the forms of "no interest" loans and so
> > understand that while no interest MAY be conditions of "profit sharing"
> > if the property involved is sold before the loan paid off. Or in the
> > condition of losses if not forbidden as "iron sheep" contracts << that's
> > just to show you I do know something about traditional societies >>
> >
> > Michael D Novack
>
> ~Frank
>
> _______________________________________________
> gnucash-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel




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Re: [GNC-dev] Interest

GnuCash - Dev mailing list
Hamid,
I cannot comment on Michael's points; however, I think the point that others are making is that the loan assistant is meant to assist users in setting up *transactions* for an interest-bearing loan. 
Account setup-- including whether an account is classed as a liability-- is separate from how the transactions are handled. If you have a loan, you will put it as a liability and see it there in your chart of accounts. 
There is no bias against non-interest loans; there just is no reason to accommodate them in this assistant. Adding a note in the documentation-- perhaps in the wiki on the FAQ or on "Using Gnucash" pages might help others understand this. 
David
 
 
  On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 9:38, Hamidreza Jafari<[hidden email]> wrote:   I didn't follow Michael D Novack. Though I can clarify on some issues that
were mentioned.

1 - Translation is not complete, my usage of the app is not exhaustive to try
its ins and outs. I questioned if GnuCash is built with the mindset of priming
interest over non-interest. The string I mentioned has either redundant
information or contradicting information.

2 - I do not intend to draw lines but rather to question the line itself. That
way agreement is facilitated or disagreement shows its hidden points of
conflict.

3 - If GnuCash has a part dedicated to loans, a user would be happy to have
all info about his loans under a Loans section rather than keeping notes to
himself in roundabout ways. Accounting is a form of bookkeeping but usage of
computing machines has provided some nifty features not possible with books. I
talked about extending and refactoring to provide support if missing. This is
about development not usage.

Hamid

On چهارشنبه ۱۲ دسامبر ۲۰۱۸ ۰:۴۱:۰۸ (+0330) Frank H. Ellenberger wrote:

> Hello Michael,
>
> Am 11.12.18 um 16:32 schrieb Michael or Penny Novack:
> > On 12/11/2018 7:05 AM, Hamidreza Jafari wrote:
> >> Enter the annual interest rate in percent. Accepts values from 0.001 -
> >> 100.
> >> The Mortgage Assistant does not support zero-interest loans.
> >>
> >> What's the situation?
> >>
> >> Hamid
> >
> > Needed for more than just Islam BUT perhaps this belongs in the "user"
> > discussion as maybe no programming involved.
>
> If one of our translators comes up with such a question, there might -
> not must - something be suboptimal with our MsgIds, their documentation
> or our user doocumentation.
>
> > You would need/use the "mortgage assistant" only for an amortizing loan
> > WITH interest. Just because you might be thinking of a loan as for the
> > same purpose as a mortgage (buying a house, etc.) does not make it one
> > as the term is being used in gnucash.
>
> I would go further than Hamid. If you see the deposit facility rate at
> https://www.ecb.europa.eu/stats/policy_and_exchange_rates/key_ecb_interest_r
> ates/html/index.en.html
>
> it is time to drop the restriction and allow zero and negative interest
> rates.
>
> > Put your question on the other list as a "how do I do in gnucash"
> > spelling out ALL of the conditions of this loan. I'm not a Muslim but do
> > have an understanding of some of the forms of "no interest" loans and so
> > understand that while no interest MAY be conditions of "profit sharing"
> > if the property involved is sold before the loan paid off. Or in the
> > condition of losses if not forbidden as "iron sheep" contracts << that's
> > just to show you I do know something about traditional societies >>
> >
> > Michael D Novack
>
> ~Frank
>
> _______________________________________________
> gnucash-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel




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Re: [GNC-dev] Interest

Frank H. Ellenberger-3
In reply to this post by John Ralls-2
Am 11.12.18 um 22:44 schrieb John Ralls:

>> On Dec 11, 2018, at 1:11 PM, Frank H. Ellenberger <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Hello Michael,
>> I would go further than Hamid. If you see the deposit facility rate at
>> https://www.ecb.europa.eu/stats/policy_and_exchange_rates/key_ecb_interest_rates/html/index.en.html
>>
>> it is time to drop the restriction and allow zero and negative interest
>> rates.
>
> Those rates are for banks borrowing from the ECB. They're not available to anyone likely to be using GnuCash.
>
> Regards,
> John Ralls
>

Most variable interest rates in Europa have the form
(ECB deposit interest rate) + x .

Currently you are right about borrowing, but not for deposits:
https://ssl.skatbank.de/sites/default/files/Konditionen_und_Preisverzeichnis.pdf
was the first, but others followed.
If you deposit there over 250 000 EUR, the interest rate is -0,5% p.a.

~Frank

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Re: [GNC-dev] Interest

Christopher Lam
In reply to this post by Hamidreza Jafari
Hi
I am not an original developer on this loan assistant.
However I think that the original loan druid was designed to
calculate/estimate the loan repayment amounts, assuming a conventional
loan, with a non-zero interest rate.
If the interest rate was zero, there would be little need for a loan druid.
e.g. original loan = $1,000 and 20 repayments of $50 each... A simple
calculator would do the trick.
I do not think there has ever been a policy against having a zero-rated
loan... but I think that the loan module has not been properly tested with
such figures. So, I am not entirely sure that a "simple refactoring" is a
good description of the process; it would require a complete review of the
loan assistant, and more testing of code to handle zero-interest loans, to
ensure crashes such as division-by-zero do not occur.
There is very little time developer CPU cycles available for such work; if
you are able to assist in reviewing code, enabling and testing, you are
very welcome on board.
So I think, at least, the "Loan Repayment Calculator" message "The interest
rate cannot be zero" should really be "The loan calculator does not handle
zero interest rates."

On Tue, 11 Dec 2018 at 20:05, Hamidreza Jafari <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I use GnuCash mostly for personal finance and use its basic features,
> that's
> why I have not tried it completely with all its capabilities. When I
> decided
> to translate I had no idea I would encounter parts of it designed in
> specific
> doctrines. This is one such string that paused my for a while:
>
> Enter the annual interest rate in percent. Accepts values from 0.001 -
> 100.
> The Mortgage Assistant does not support zero-interest loans.
>
> Although it is possible to set up zero interest business using extra
> effort it
> is better that the tool can be used at a policy level. Historical views on
> the
> subject are clear. It is true that Islam (which was referred to as Sharia)
> takes sides about it, it is not the only one contending. There are some
> issues
> in life that are not a matter of voting simply because of limited capacity
> of
> everyday person.
>
> It is not clear to me if there are some other parts in GnuCash that have
> been
> designed in similar ideas. I would like it to be accepting of the moral
> side
> by allowing interest-free transactions (I currently suffice to this level
> of
> goodness advocacy). I hope it is designed and implemented in such a way
> that
> extension is possible if not a simple refactoring can do the job.
>
> What's the situation?
>
> Hamid
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> gnucash-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
>
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Re: [GNC-dev] Interest

Michael or Penny Novack
In reply to this post by Hamidreza Jafari
On 12/11/2018 11:07 PM, Hamidreza Jafari wrote:
> I didn't follow Michael D Novack. Though I can clarify on some issues that
> were mentioned.
> Hamid
Sorry about that. I was not expecting many on this list to understand,
but there can be MORE differences between Western Civ "interest" loans
and no interest loans of various traditional societies.

Interest loans are (almost always) fully defined as to the amount to be
paid back.

No interest loans are not necessarily so defined, may resemble
"partnership investments". An "iron sheep" contract was a very unfair
arrangement (unfair to the borrower) which was definite on the downside
but profit shared on the up side. Forbidden by Jewish law and the
"sheep" because originally poor shepherds needing to borrow to get sheep
to manage.

Please understand, the no interest loans of traditional societies do NOT
necessarily mean that the lender could not make a profit on the loan.
Just that this could not be from INTEREST, had to be conditional on
outcome, and the borrower not assuming all of the risk << "iron sheep" >>

Accounting for CONDITIONAL items can be non-trivial. Let me give an
example from my days. I went to college partially with NDF loans. These
were CONDITIONAL loans. They had an interest rate but interest was not
charged if in school or if teaching school (after graduation) and each
year teaching forgave a percentage of the loan.

Michael D Novack
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Re: [GNC-dev] Interest

Hamidreza Jafari
In reply to this post by Christopher Lam
On چهارشنبه ۱۲ دسامبر ۲۰۱۸ ۱۷:۳۱:۲۱ (+0330) Christopher Lam wrote:
Many on the list are mentioning that the scenario is possible but simply not
provisioned in the part that does it automatically which here it is the
calculator. The stress so far evident in discussions causes one to question if
this was even originally intended, that is manual operation. If so that has to
change. I am not currently in need of such feature but a high view will
require that work that can be automated, should be automated.

About improving GnuCash, I would rather finish the translation sooner but
redesign and extension is possible when practical usage gets momentum.

Hamid

> Hi
> I am not an original developer on this loan assistant.
> However I think that the original loan druid was designed to
> calculate/estimate the loan repayment amounts, assuming a conventional
> loan, with a non-zero interest rate.
> If the interest rate was zero, there would be little need for a loan druid.
> e.g. original loan = $1,000 and 20 repayments of $50 each... A simple
> calculator would do the trick.
> I do not think there has ever been a policy against having a zero-rated
> loan... but I think that the loan module has not been properly tested with
> such figures. So, I am not entirely sure that a "simple refactoring" is a
> good description of the process; it would require a complete review of the
> loan assistant, and more testing of code to handle zero-interest loans, to
> ensure crashes such as division-by-zero do not occur.
> There is very little time developer CPU cycles available for such work; if
> you are able to assist in reviewing code, enabling and testing, you are
> very welcome on board.
> So I think, at least, the "Loan Repayment Calculator" message "The interest
> rate cannot be zero" should really be "The loan calculator does not handle
> zero interest rates."
>
> On Tue, 11 Dec 2018 at 20:05, Hamidreza Jafari <[hidden email]>
>
> wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > I use GnuCash mostly for personal finance and use its basic features,
> > that's
> > why I have not tried it completely with all its capabilities. When I
> > decided
> > to translate I had no idea I would encounter parts of it designed in
> > specific
> > doctrines. This is one such string that paused my for a while:
> >
> > Enter the annual interest rate in percent. Accepts values from 0.001 -
> > 100.
> > The Mortgage Assistant does not support zero-interest loans.
> >
> > Although it is possible to set up zero interest business using extra
> > effort it
> > is better that the tool can be used at a policy level. Historical views on
> > the
> > subject are clear. It is true that Islam (which was referred to as Sharia)
> > takes sides about it, it is not the only one contending. There are some
> > issues
> > in life that are not a matter of voting simply because of limited capacity
> > of
> > everyday person.
> >
> > It is not clear to me if there are some other parts in GnuCash that have
> > been
> > designed in similar ideas. I would like it to be accepting of the moral
> > side
> > by allowing interest-free transactions (I currently suffice to this level
> > of
> > goodness advocacy). I hope it is designed and implemented in such a way
> > that
> > extension is possible if not a simple refactoring can do the job.
> >
> > What's the situation?
> >
> > Hamid
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > gnucash-devel mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel




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Re: [GNC-dev] Interest

David Cousens
Hamid,

What would you envisage a loan calculator for a zero interest loan providing? How would you envisage such a calculator
dealing with the five loan types often encountered in Islamic finance e.g.
Murabaha  
Mudarabah
Ijara
Musharaka
Wakala.
As far as I can see these are all dealt with by (Principal + profit)/No of repayments. Any further complexities are
likely to be contractual in basis rather than in the accounting.

If you can describe what you would like to have GnuCash do, in dealing with such loans, then we are better able to
assess how to meet your needs.

You are right in that it is also highly likely that the original developer did not envisage dealing with a zero interest
loan for some obvious reasons. The formulae commonly used to calculate the payment for an interest bearing loan is
proportional to the interest rate and the present value of the loan, see
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortgage_calculator, which would result in a zero value payment for a zero value interest
rate which is more than likely why a zero interest rate has been excluded in the existing assistant code.

As other have pointed out and the above article in Wikipedia describes, the payment in the case of zero interest becomes
simply the principal of the loan divided by the number of payments to be made. This is not a complex calculation as in
the case of an interest bearing loan, which is why a calculated payment schedule is not really required.

GnuCash is developed almost entirely by volunteers and there are only a relatively small number of people with a
comprehensive knowledge of the code able to add new features, so incorporating new features requires a developer with:

1 the time to tackle the problem (bugs which prevent GnuCash from working correctly are a higher priority than new
features;
2 the expertise to tackle it;
3 usually a specific interest in the area of the problem.;
4 the problem having a priority with the user base (i.e. the number of users requesting a solution).

As a result new features can sometimes take some time to be developed and incorporated into the GnuCash.

The way to get new features incorporated is to go to https://bugs.gnucash.org and enter a description of the problem you
would like to have addressed describing it as completely as possible. That will at least get your problem into the queue
and development cycle, where it can at least compete with existing bugs/feature requests for priority.

In the mean time, the suggestions people have made are to help you achieve a way of using GnuCash to achieve your ends
using the existing features of GnuCash, until such time as GnuCash can be improved. That is a prime function of the
forum.

It may be that a simple change in the code to allow a zero interest rate in the current loan assistant is all that is
required. Even small changes take some time however as the GnuCash code is complex and changes introduced in one area
can result in unexpected results and problems in other areas of the code.


David Cousens



On Thu, 2018-12-13 at 05:09 +0330, Hamidreza Jafari wrote:

> On چهارشنبه ۱۲ دسامبر ۲۰۱۸ ۱۷:۳۱:۲۱ (+0330) Christopher Lam wrote:
> Many on the list are mentioning that the scenario is possible but simply not
> provisioned in the part that does it automatically which here it is the
> calculator. The stress so far evident in discussions causes one to question if
> this was even originally intended, that is manual operation. If so that has to
> change. I am not currently in need of such feature but a high view will
> require that work that can be automated, should be automated.
>
> About improving GnuCash, I would rather finish the translation sooner but
> redesign and extension is possible when practical usage gets momentum.
>
> Hamid
>
> > Hi
> > I am not an original developer on this loan assistant.
> > However I think that the original loan druid was designed to
> > calculate/estimate the loan repayment amounts, assuming a conventional
> > loan, with a non-zero interest rate.
> > If the interest rate was zero, there would be little need for a loan druid.
> > e.g. original loan = $1,000 and 20 repayments of $50 each... A simple
> > calculator would do the trick.
> > I do not think there has ever been a policy against having a zero-rated
> > loan... but I think that the loan module has not been properly tested with
> > such figures. So, I am not entirely sure that a "simple refactoring" is a
> > good description of the process; it would require a complete review of the
> > loan assistant, and more testing of code to handle zero-interest loans, to
> > ensure crashes such as division-by-zero do not occur.
> > There is very little time developer CPU cycles available for such work; if
> > you are able to assist in reviewing code, enabling and testing, you are
> > very welcome on board.
> > So I think, at least, the "Loan Repayment Calculator" message "The interest
> > rate cannot be zero" should really be "The loan calculator does not handle
> > zero interest rates."
> >
> > On Tue, 11 Dec 2018 at 20:05, Hamidreza Jafari <[hidden email]>
> >
> > wrote:
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > > I use GnuCash mostly for personal finance and use its basic features,
> > > that's
> > > why I have not tried it completely with all its capabilities. When I
> > > decided
> > > to translate I had no idea I would encounter parts of it designed in
> > > specific
> > > doctrines. This is one such string that paused my for a while:
> > >
> > > Enter the annual interest rate in percent. Accepts values from 0.001 -
> > > 100.
> > > The Mortgage Assistant does not support zero-interest loans.
> > >
> > > Although it is possible to set up zero interest business using extra
> > > effort it
> > > is better that the tool can be used at a policy level. Historical views on
> > > the
> > > subject are clear. It is true that Islam (which was referred to as Sharia)
> > > takes sides about it, it is not the only one contending. There are some
> > > issues
> > > in life that are not a matter of voting simply because of limited capacity
> > > of
> > > everyday person.
> > >
> > > It is not clear to me if there are some other parts in GnuCash that have
> > > been
> > > designed in similar ideas. I would like it to be accepting of the moral
> > > side
> > > by allowing interest-free transactions (I currently suffice to this level
> > > of
> > > goodness advocacy). I hope it is designed and implemented in such a way
> > > that
> > > extension is possible if not a simple refactoring can do the job.
> > >
> > > What's the situation?
> > >
> > > Hamid
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > gnucash-devel mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> gnucash-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel

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Re: [GNC-dev] Interest

David Cousens
In reply to this post by Hamidreza Jafari
Hamid,

I have looked in a bit more detail at the possibility of producing a loan
calculator for Islamic finance, principally at Musharaka type loans in which
the investor is assigned equity in the business. The major difficulty in
implementing any sort of calculator in this case is that payments to the
investor depend on the profit made by the business and the fraction of the
equity in the business the investor has purchased.

The profit  is an unknown quantity before the end of any repayment period
which is then shared on an agreed basis between the original owner and the
investor on the basis of their respective equities. There is no way to
predict the payment until the profit for the business is calculated from the
books for the period.

It is even more complex where the share of equity of the investor is
decreased over time by repayment at a rate higher than the investors share
of the profit for the same reason that the profit is not a quantity that is
necessarily calculable from the nominal value of the business. This makes it
impossible to calculate future payments, and the equity and outstanding
principal of the loan at a future time in the way one can with a loan with
an interest rate.

I can derive a sequence of calculations which must be carried out at the end
of each repayment period once the profit for that period is available, but
this sequence cannot possibly converge to give any future predictable
results as each period a new unknown quantity is introduced into the
calulation which is independent of any fixed parameters of the calculation.

In such a case one would be better maintaining a calculation in a
spreadsheet which updates when the profit is available and simply
transferring the quantities to the transactions entered into GnuCash.

I have not looked at other loan types but they all appear to have a payment
calculated in some manner from profits which is an unknown quantity. In the
case of Ijara type contracts, the lease schedule of payments appears to be
part of the contract and is whatever is agreed between the lessee and the
lessor, i.e. ther is no need to calculate it because it is already
prespecified in the contract.

David Cousens



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Re: [GNC-dev] Interest

Hamidreza Jafari
In reply to this post by David Cousens
On پنجشنبه ۱۳ دسامبر ۲۰۱۸ ۷:۵۲:۱۱ (+0330) David Cousens wrote:

> Hamid,
>
> What would you envisage a loan calculator for a zero interest loan
> providing? How would you envisage such a calculator dealing with the five
> loan types often encountered in Islamic finance e.g. Murabaha
> Mudarabah
> Ijara
> Musharaka
> Wakala.
> As far as I can see these are all dealt with by (Principal + profit)/No of
> repayments. Any further complexities are likely to be contractual in basis
> rather than in the accounting.
>
> If you can describe what you would like to have GnuCash do, in dealing with
> such loans, then we are better able to assess how to meet your needs.
>
> You are right in that it is also highly likely that the original developer
> did not envisage dealing with a zero interest loan for some obvious
> reasons. The formulae commonly used to calculate the payment for an
> interest bearing loan is proportional to the interest rate and the present
> value of the loan, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortgage_calculator,
> which would result in a zero value payment for a zero value interest rate
> which is more than likely why a zero interest rate has been excluded in the
> existing assistant code.
>
> As other have pointed out and the above article in Wikipedia describes, the
> payment in the case of zero interest becomes simply the principal of the
> loan divided by the number of payments to be made. This is not a complex
> calculation as in the case of an interest bearing loan, which is why a
> calculated payment schedule is not really required.
>
> GnuCash is developed almost entirely by volunteers and there are only a
> relatively small number of people with a comprehensive knowledge of the
> code able to add new features, so incorporating new features requires a
> developer with:
>
> 1 the time to tackle the problem (bugs which prevent GnuCash from working
> correctly are a higher priority than new features;
> 2 the expertise to tackle it;
> 3 usually a specific interest in the area of the problem.;
> 4 the problem having a priority with the user base (i.e. the number of users
> requesting a solution).
>
> As a result new features can sometimes take some time to be developed and
> incorporated into the GnuCash.
>
> The way to get new features incorporated is to go to
> https://bugs.gnucash.org and enter a description of the problem you would
> like to have addressed describing it as completely as possible. That will
> at least get your problem into the queue and development cycle, where it
> can at least compete with existing bugs/feature requests for priority.
>
> In the mean time, the suggestions people have made are to help you achieve a
> way of using GnuCash to achieve your ends using the existing features of
> GnuCash, until such time as GnuCash can be improved. That is a prime
> function of the forum.
>
> It may be that a simple change in the code to allow a zero interest rate in
> the current loan assistant is all that is required. Even small changes take
> some time however as the GnuCash code is complex and changes introduced in
> one area can result in unexpected results and problems in other areas of
> the code.
>
>
> David Cousens
>
> On Thu, 2018-12-13 at 05:09 +0330, Hamidreza Jafari wrote:
> > On چهارشنبه ۱۲ دسامبر ۲۰۱۸ ۱۷:۳۱:۲۱ (+0330) Christopher Lam wrote:
> > Many on the list are mentioning that the scenario is possible but simply
> > not provisioned in the part that does it automatically which here it is
> > the calculator. The stress so far evident in discussions causes one to
> > question if this was even originally intended, that is manual operation.
> > If so that has to change. I am not currently in need of such feature but
> > a high view will require that work that can be automated, should be
> > automated.
> >
> > About improving GnuCash, I would rather finish the translation sooner but
> > redesign and extension is possible when practical usage gets momentum.
> >
> > Hamid
> >
> > > Hi
> > > I am not an original developer on this loan assistant.
> > > However I think that the original loan druid was designed to
> > > calculate/estimate the loan repayment amounts, assuming a conventional
> > > loan, with a non-zero interest rate.
> > > If the interest rate was zero, there would be little need for a loan
> > > druid.
> > > e.g. original loan = $1,000 and 20 repayments of $50 each... A simple
> > > calculator would do the trick.
> > > I do not think there has ever been a policy against having a zero-rated
> > > loan... but I think that the loan module has not been properly tested
> > > with
> > > such figures. So, I am not entirely sure that a "simple refactoring" is
> > > a
> > > good description of the process; it would require a complete review of
> > > the
> > > loan assistant, and more testing of code to handle zero-interest loans,
> > > to
> > > ensure crashes such as division-by-zero do not occur.
> > > There is very little time developer CPU cycles available for such work;
> > > if
> > > you are able to assist in reviewing code, enabling and testing, you are
> > > very welcome on board.
> > > So I think, at least, the "Loan Repayment Calculator" message "The
> > > interest
> > > rate cannot be zero" should really be "The loan calculator does not
> > > handle
> > > zero interest rates."
> > >
> > > On Tue, 11 Dec 2018 at 20:05, Hamidreza Jafari <[hidden email]>
> > >
> > > wrote:
> > > > Hello,
> > > >
> > > > I use GnuCash mostly for personal finance and use its basic features,
> > > > that's
> > > > why I have not tried it completely with all its capabilities. When I
> > > > decided
> > > > to translate I had no idea I would encounter parts of it designed in
> > > > specific
> > > > doctrines. This is one such string that paused my for a while:
> > > >
> > > > Enter the annual interest rate in percent. Accepts values from 0.001 -
> > > > 100.
> > > > The Mortgage Assistant does not support zero-interest loans.
> > > >
> > > > Although it is possible to set up zero interest business using extra
> > > > effort it
> > > > is better that the tool can be used at a policy level. Historical
> > > > views on
> > > > the
> > > > subject are clear. It is true that Islam (which was referred to as
> > > > Sharia)
> > > > takes sides about it, it is not the only one contending. There are
> > > > some
> > > > issues
> > > > in life that are not a matter of voting simply because of limited
> > > > capacity
> > > > of
> > > > everyday person.
> > > >
> > > > It is not clear to me if there are some other parts in GnuCash that
> > > > have
> > > > been
> > > > designed in similar ideas. I would like it to be accepting of the
> > > > moral
> > > > side
> > > > by allowing interest-free transactions (I currently suffice to this
> > > > level
> > > > of
> > > > goodness advocacy). I hope it is designed and implemented in such a
> > > > way
> > > > that
> > > > extension is possible if not a simple refactoring can do the job.
> > > >
> > > > What's the situation?
> > > >
> > > > Hamid
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > gnucash-devel mailing list
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > gnucash-devel mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel

The discussion inevitably would continue to the essence of life since a
business say a company exists because it can provide more or at least ample
resources than it consumes. It is better to keep it on track and not bring in
many other issues that are vital but require time and effort to discuss more
than is reasonable in an email reply.

Hamid


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Re: [GNC-dev] Interest

Frank H. Ellenberger-3
Hi.

as ISTR questions about this theme have been on the user list before and
it seems not to be trivial, I would like to ask:

David, can you condense your findings into a separate wiki page "Zero
Interest Loans" or similar?

All others can then contribute there and we can share the link, where
desired.

TIA
Frank

Am 14.12.18 um 12:55 schrieb Hamidreza Jafari:

> On پنجشنبه ۱۳ دسامبر ۲۰۱۸ ۷:۵۲:۱۱ (+0330) David Cousens wrote:
>> Hamid,
>>
>> What would you envisage a loan calculator for a zero interest loan
>> providing? How would you envisage such a calculator dealing with the five
>> loan types often encountered in Islamic finance e.g. Murabaha
>> Mudarabah
>> Ijara
>> Musharaka
>> Wakala.
>> As far as I can see these are all dealt with by (Principal + profit)/No of
>> repayments. Any further complexities are likely to be contractual in basis
>> rather than in the accounting.
>>
>> If you can describe what you would like to have GnuCash do, in dealing with
>> such loans, then we are better able to assess how to meet your needs.
>>
>> You are right in that it is also highly likely that the original developer
>> did not envisage dealing with a zero interest loan for some obvious
>> reasons. The formulae commonly used to calculate the payment for an
>> interest bearing loan is proportional to the interest rate and the present
>> value of the loan, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortgage_calculator,
>> which would result in a zero value payment for a zero value interest rate
>> which is more than likely why a zero interest rate has been excluded in the
>> existing assistant code.
>>
>> As other have pointed out and the above article in Wikipedia describes, the
>> payment in the case of zero interest becomes simply the principal of the
>> loan divided by the number of payments to be made. This is not a complex
>> calculation as in the case of an interest bearing loan, which is why a
>> calculated payment schedule is not really required.
>>
>> GnuCash is developed almost entirely by volunteers and there are only a
>> relatively small number of people with a comprehensive knowledge of the
>> code able to add new features, so incorporating new features requires a
>> developer with:
>>
>> 1 the time to tackle the problem (bugs which prevent GnuCash from working
>> correctly are a higher priority than new features;
>> 2 the expertise to tackle it;
>> 3 usually a specific interest in the area of the problem.;
>> 4 the problem having a priority with the user base (i.e. the number of users
>> requesting a solution).
>>
>> As a result new features can sometimes take some time to be developed and
>> incorporated into the GnuCash.
>>
>> The way to get new features incorporated is to go to
>> https://bugs.gnucash.org and enter a description of the problem you would
>> like to have addressed describing it as completely as possible. That will
>> at least get your problem into the queue and development cycle, where it
>> can at least compete with existing bugs/feature requests for priority.
>>
>> In the mean time, the suggestions people have made are to help you achieve a
>> way of using GnuCash to achieve your ends using the existing features of
>> GnuCash, until such time as GnuCash can be improved. That is a prime
>> function of the forum.
>>
>> It may be that a simple change in the code to allow a zero interest rate in
>> the current loan assistant is all that is required. Even small changes take
>> some time however as the GnuCash code is complex and changes introduced in
>> one area can result in unexpected results and problems in other areas of
>> the code.
>>
>>
>> David Cousens
>>
>> On Thu, 2018-12-13 at 05:09 +0330, Hamidreza Jafari wrote:
>>> On چهارشنبه ۱۲ دسامبر ۲۰۱۸ ۱۷:۳۱:۲۱ (+0330) Christopher Lam wrote:
>>> Many on the list are mentioning that the scenario is possible but simply
>>> not provisioned in the part that does it automatically which here it is
>>> the calculator. The stress so far evident in discussions causes one to
>>> question if this was even originally intended, that is manual operation.
>>> If so that has to change. I am not currently in need of such feature but
>>> a high view will require that work that can be automated, should be
>>> automated.
>>>
>>> About improving GnuCash, I would rather finish the translation sooner but
>>> redesign and extension is possible when practical usage gets momentum.
>>>
>>> Hamid
>>>
>>>> Hi
>>>> I am not an original developer on this loan assistant.
>>>> However I think that the original loan druid was designed to
>>>> calculate/estimate the loan repayment amounts, assuming a conventional
>>>> loan, with a non-zero interest rate.
>>>> If the interest rate was zero, there would be little need for a loan
>>>> druid.
>>>> e.g. original loan = $1,000 and 20 repayments of $50 each... A simple
>>>> calculator would do the trick.
>>>> I do not think there has ever been a policy against having a zero-rated
>>>> loan... but I think that the loan module has not been properly tested
>>>> with
>>>> such figures. So, I am not entirely sure that a "simple refactoring" is
>>>> a
>>>> good description of the process; it would require a complete review of
>>>> the
>>>> loan assistant, and more testing of code to handle zero-interest loans,
>>>> to
>>>> ensure crashes such as division-by-zero do not occur.
>>>> There is very little time developer CPU cycles available for such work;
>>>> if
>>>> you are able to assist in reviewing code, enabling and testing, you are
>>>> very welcome on board.
>>>> So I think, at least, the "Loan Repayment Calculator" message "The
>>>> interest
>>>> rate cannot be zero" should really be "The loan calculator does not
>>>> handle
>>>> zero interest rates."
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, 11 Dec 2018 at 20:05, Hamidreza Jafari <[hidden email]>
>>>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>
>>>>> I use GnuCash mostly for personal finance and use its basic features,
>>>>> that's
>>>>> why I have not tried it completely with all its capabilities. When I
>>>>> decided
>>>>> to translate I had no idea I would encounter parts of it designed in
>>>>> specific
>>>>> doctrines. This is one such string that paused my for a while:
>>>>>
>>>>> Enter the annual interest rate in percent. Accepts values from 0.001 -
>>>>> 100.
>>>>> The Mortgage Assistant does not support zero-interest loans.
>>>>>
>>>>> Although it is possible to set up zero interest business using extra
>>>>> effort it
>>>>> is better that the tool can be used at a policy level. Historical
>>>>> views on
>>>>> the
>>>>> subject are clear. It is true that Islam (which was referred to as
>>>>> Sharia)
>>>>> takes sides about it, it is not the only one contending. There are
>>>>> some
>>>>> issues
>>>>> in life that are not a matter of voting simply because of limited
>>>>> capacity
>>>>> of
>>>>> everyday person.
>>>>>
>>>>> It is not clear to me if there are some other parts in GnuCash that
>>>>> have
>>>>> been
>>>>> designed in similar ideas. I would like it to be accepting of the
>>>>> moral
>>>>> side
>>>>> by allowing interest-free transactions (I currently suffice to this
>>>>> level
>>>>> of
>>>>> goodness advocacy). I hope it is designed and implemented in such a
>>>>> way
>>>>> that
>>>>> extension is possible if not a simple refactoring can do the job.
>>>>>
>>>>> What's the situation?
>>>>>
>>>>> Hamid
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> gnucash-devel mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> gnucash-devel mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
>
> The discussion inevitably would continue to the essence of life since a
> business say a company exists because it can provide more or at least ample
> resources than it consumes. It is better to keep it on track and not bring in
> many other issues that are vital but require time and effort to discuss more
> than is reasonable in an email reply.
>
> Hamid
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> gnucash-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
>

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Re: [GNC-dev] Interest

David Cousens
Frank,

Will give it a go. Hamid is possibly right in that it will be too complex to
deal with the various possibilities but I will see if I can illustrate a few
simple cases.

David



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Re: [GNC-dev] Interest

David Cousens
Frank
I really can't see a logical place in the Wiki to add something on non
interest bearing loans. If under Localization, I will need someone to create
a link to a page I can put it together on as I don't have edit rights on the
wiki front page but I can edit pages linked from it. Perhaps a title like
"Non Interest Bearing Loans"

David



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Re: [GNC-dev] Interest

Geert Janssens-4
Op zaterdag 15 december 2018 08:23:55 CET schreef David Cousens:
> Frank
> I really can't see a logical place in the Wiki to add something on non
> interest bearing loans. If under Localization, I will need someone to create
> a link to a page I can put it together on as I don't have edit rights on
> the wiki front page but I can edit pages linked from it. Perhaps a title
> like "Non Interest Bearing Loans"
>
> David

David,

I believe it works the other way around:
You first create your page and then someone with rights can add it to the
front page.

You can create a new page by searching for it. As it's new the search results
will have an option to create it. As far as I understand, we give page
creation rights to every wiki editor.

Regards,

Geert


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Re: [GNC-dev] Interest

GnuCash - Dev mailing list
Um, I wouldn't see putting this as a direct link of the top page of the wiki. It's a rather specific use case. Without digging into the wiki, I'd see it more as something from the Using Gnucash page, or the FAQ.

 
 
  On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 13:06, Geert Janssens<[hidden email]> wrote:   Op zaterdag 15 december 2018 08:23:55 CET schreef David Cousens:
> Frank
> I really can't see a logical place in the Wiki to add something on non
> interest bearing loans. If under Localization, I will need someone to create
> a link to a page I can put it together on as I don't have edit rights on
> the wiki front page but I can edit pages linked from it. Perhaps a title
> like "Non Interest Bearing Loans"
>
> David

David,

I believe it works the other way around:
You first create your page and then someone with rights can add it to the
front page.

You can create a new page by searching for it. As it's new the search results
will have an option to create it. As far as I understand, we give page
creation rights to every wiki editor.

Regards,

Geert


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