[GNC-dev] GnuCash Portable is no longer portable as of 3.x

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[GNC-dev] GnuCash Portable is no longer portable as of 3.x

GnuCash - Dev mailing list
GnuCash Portable
https://portableapps.com/apps/office/gnucash_portable
is no longer portable as of 3.x

I have "reached out" [1] but I am not getting a reply from the person I
think has the power to fix this.

What I don't want is for GnuCash to pick up the shit when someone loses
their work and looking at the forums it looks like that may already have
happened.

Would a senior contact me off-list (the address works) so we can try to
manage this, please.

[1] what a dreadful term that is :(

--
Wm

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Re: [GNC-dev] GnuCash Portable is no longer portable as of 3.x

Colin Law
On 5 July 2018 at 06:05, Wm via gnucash-devel <[hidden email]> wrote:
> GnuCash Portable
> https://portableapps.com/apps/office/gnucash_portable
> is no longer portable as of 3.x

I think it would be useful if you detailed the problem a little so
others would not fall into the trap, or pointed us to a bug
description or something.

Colin
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Re: [GNC-dev] GnuCash Portable is no longer portable as of 3.x

GnuCash - Dev mailing list
On 05/07/2018 08:24, Colin Law wrote:
> On 5 July 2018 at 06:05, Wm via gnucash-devel <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> GnuCash Portable
>> https://portableapps.com/apps/office/gnucash_portable
>> is no longer portable as of 3.x
>
> I think it would be useful if you detailed the problem a little so
> others would not fall into the trap, or pointed us to a bug
> description or something.

The problem is that there are

one way file changes between 2.x and 3.x

and

significant directory use changes between 2.x and 3.x

I know that, you know that but someone at PortableApps doesn't want to know.

===

Someone using the portable version is trying to go back to 2.x from 3.x,
that isn't going to work unless they have backups, the PA person doesn't
seem to know you can't go back.

Someone else has reported they lost all their reports, well, duh, what
was expected when the person making GnuCash 3.x portable didn't notice
that the directory use changed.

===

I do *not* believe the person in charge of PortableApps.com is a bad
person, quite the opposite, I believe he is a good person, I think
PortableApps.com is a valuable site that provides useful resources.

I'm not sure a bodged version of gnc 3.x that is guaranteed to lose a
directory is going to help anyone.

===

I have had a response from the site owner but he doesn't seem to be
understanding that the changes between 2.x and 3.x were significant and
required some action on his part.

I have BCC'd this, if a gnc mod sees this first, please respect the BCC,
thank you.

--
Wm



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Re: [GNC-dev] GnuCash Portable is no longer portable as of 3.x

John Ralls-2


> On Jul 7, 2018, at 11:55 PM, Wm via gnucash-devel <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 05/07/2018 08:24, Colin Law wrote:
>> On 5 July 2018 at 06:05, Wm via gnucash-devel <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> GnuCash Portable
>>> https://portableapps.com/apps/office/gnucash_portable
>>> is no longer portable as of 3.x
>> I think it would be useful if you detailed the problem a little so
>> others would not fall into the trap, or pointed us to a bug
>> description or something.
>
> The problem is that there are
>
> one way file changes between 2.x and 3.x
>
> and
>
> significant directory use changes between 2.x and 3.x
>
> I know that, you know that but someone at PortableApps doesn't want to know.
>
> ===
>
> Someone using the portable version is trying to go back to 2.x from 3.x, that isn't going to work unless they have backups, the PA person doesn't seem to know you can't go back.
>
> Someone else has reported they lost all their reports, well, duh, what was expected when the person making GnuCash 3.x portable didn't notice that the directory use changed.
>
> ===
>
> I do *not* believe the person in charge of PortableApps.com is a bad person, quite the opposite, I believe he is a good person, I think PortableApps.com is a valuable site that provides useful resources.
>
> I'm not sure a bodged version of gnc 3.x that is guaranteed to lose a directory is going to help anyone.
>
> ===
>
> I have had a response from the site owner but he doesn't seem to be understanding that the changes between 2.x and 3.x were significant and required some action on his part.
>
> I have BCC’d this, if a gnc mod sees this first, please respect the BCC, thank you.
>

Wm,

Portable Apps is just another downstream distro.  We have no ability to enforce anything against any distro. Either they maintain a usable GnuCash in their package manager or they don’t and there’s not a darn thing we can do about it unless they have a technical reason for not doing so (like the recent dropping of the WebKit1 API by Fedora) and inform us of it. AFAIK we’ve never had any such contact from the Portable team.

A question for you: Why did you choose to use GnuCash Portable instead of the GnuCash Windows bundle from www.gnucash.org <http://www.gnucash.org/>?

Regards,
John Ralls



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Re: [GNC-dev] GnuCash Portable is no longer portable as of 3.x

GnuCash - Dev mailing list
On 08/07/2018 15:52, John Ralls wrote:

> Wm,
>
> Portable Apps is just another downstream distro.  We have no ability to enforce anything against any distro. Either they maintain a usable GnuCash in their package manager or they don’t and there’s not a darn thing we can do about it unless they have a technical reason for not doing so (like the recent dropping of the WebKit1 API by Fedora) and inform us of it. AFAIK we’ve never had any such contact from the Portable team.
>

That isn't how PA present their re-packaging and use of GnuCash.

> A question for you: Why did you choose to use GnuCash Portable instead of the GnuCash Windows bundle from www.gnucash.org <http://www.gnucash.org/>?

I don't use it myself, I use it on other people's behalf.

Reasons?

Convenience. I can say "don't update to GnuCash 3.x until it is working
right for you" rather than having them try early versions that I know
won't do what they expect.

Backups. PortableApps puts data in more sensible places by default than
GnuCash does, or used to.  <--- See the circle here?

--
Wm





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Re: [GNC-dev] GnuCash Portable is no longer portable as of 3.x

John Ralls-2


> On Jul 8, 2018, at 7:35 PM, Wm via gnucash-devel <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 08/07/2018 15:52, John Ralls wrote:
>
>> Wm,
>> Portable Apps is just another downstream distro.  We have no ability to enforce anything against any distro. Either they maintain a usable GnuCash in their package manager or they don’t and there’s not a darn thing we can do about it unless they have a technical reason for not doing so (like the recent dropping of the WebKit1 API by Fedora) and inform us of it. AFAIK we’ve never had any such contact from the Portable team.
>
> That isn’t how PA present their re-packaging and use of GnuCash.

Oh? Please explain.

>
>> A question for you: Why did you choose to use GnuCash Portable instead of the GnuCash Windows bundle from www.gnucash.org <http://www.gnucash.org/>?
>
> I don't use it myself, I use it on other people's behalf.
>
> Reasons?
>
> Convenience. I can say "don't update to GnuCash 3.x until it is working right for you" rather than having them try early versions that I know won't do what they expect.
>
> Backups. PortableApps puts data in more sensible places by default than GnuCash does, or used to.  <--- See the circle here?

GnuCash puts data wherever you tell it to. It has defaults, but they’re easily overridden with environment variables.

Regards,
John Ralls


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Re: [GNC-dev] GnuCash Portable is no longer portable as of 3.x

GnuCash - Dev mailing list
On 09/07/2018 04:03, John Ralls wrote:

Notice: Subject may be wrong at time of writing as I see there is a new
PA version, I haven't tested it yet.

>> On Jul 8, 2018, at 7:35 PM, Wm via gnucash-devel <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On 08/07/2018 15:52, John Ralls wrote:
>>
>>> Wm,
>>> Portable Apps is just another downstream distro.  We have no ability to enforce anything against any distro. Either they maintain a usable GnuCash in their package manager or they don’t and there’s not a darn thing we can do about it unless they have a technical reason for not doing so (like the recent dropping of the WebKit1 API by Fedora) and inform us of it. AFAIK we’ve never had any such contact from the Portable team.
>>
>> That isn’t how PA present their re-packaging and use of GnuCash.
>
> Oh? Please explain.

PA actively moves files and directories about and writes to and from the
Registry so that an App can be picked up and put down on more than one
PC, conceptually the person takes all their applications with them on a
usb stick and plugs it in at work, home and school.  The PA folk take
Applications that aren't portable from one system to another (many
Windows programmes, GnuCash for example) and makes them Portable.

NB: my paraphrase in explanation, PortableApps.com explains it better.

This was working fine until PA didn't notice the changes between 2.x and
3.x and didn't get clue when things were pointed out to them by myself
via e-mail and by reports from users of the portable version (I think
distro may not fit, depending on how we define a distro).

There are considerable advantages and conveniences to the PA way when it
comes to backups, networked drives, people needing to take GnuCash with
them when they go to a conference and so on that GnuCash doesn't
natively support because it does stuff that is illogical to me; why
would an invoice format or budget that takes hours to build (and almost
any other well constructed report of general and regular use) be stored
*per_user* and even if it is the same user why store it uniquely
*per_a_user's_different_computers* rather than associated closely with
the book itself ... but this probably isn't the message for visiting
that again.  Clearly someone at GnuCash towers thinks MicroSoft got
AppData storage right :(

Hint: Putting something in \AppData\Roaming doesn't mean you take it
with you from one PC to another as you roam about.

>>> A question for you: Why did you choose to use GnuCash Portable instead of the GnuCash Windows bundle from www.gnucash.org <http://www.gnucash.org/>?
>>
>> I don't use it myself, I use it on other people's behalf.
>>
>> Reasons?
>>
>> Convenience. I can say "don't update to GnuCash 3.x until it is working right for you" rather than having them try early versions that I know won't do what they expect.
>>
>> Backups. PortableApps puts data in more sensible places by default than GnuCash does, or used to.  <--- See the circle here?
>
> GnuCash puts data wherever you tell it to. It has defaults, but they’re easily overridden with environment variables.

OK, update the wiki so users understand what to change so all the bits
in the weird Windows file space can be put conveniently next to the
books they belong to.  <-- that isn't going to happen, is it?  Someone
bought into the Windows model of where things go and Reports (and other
.gnucash elements) have ended up in very personal space rather than
being closely associated with the data (book) they belong to and are
completely fucking useless in isolation of said file.  Who in their
right mind would want anyone else's
..\AppData\Roaming\GnuCash
without the matching book?

What I think you should have done was put .gnucash in the same dir as
the data.  Not hard.  All that is then needed is for Fred and Mary to
add their name to their chosen versions of the Balance Sheet rather than
this increasing separation of items that belong together.

I mean, if you ran a restaurant would you store the menu a mile away
from the people dealing with the food and the customers? <-- I'm not
sure that analogy really works but in the interests of self deprecation
I'll leave it.  Anything is allowed anywhere in the USA after Trump,
right? :)

--
Wm

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Re: [GNC-dev] GnuCash Portable is no longer portable as of 3.x

John Ralls-2


> On Jul 10, 2018, at 8:32 PM, Wm via gnucash-devel <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 09/07/2018 04:03, John Ralls wrote:
>
> Notice: Subject may be wrong at time of writing as I see there is a new PA version, I haven't tested it yet.
>
>>> On Jul 8, 2018, at 7:35 PM, Wm via gnucash-devel <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 08/07/2018 15:52, John Ralls wrote:
>>>
>>>> Wm,
>>>> Portable Apps is just another downstream distro.  We have no ability to enforce anything against any distro. Either they maintain a usable GnuCash in their package manager or they don’t and there’s not a darn thing we can do about it unless they have a technical reason for not doing so (like the recent dropping of the WebKit1 API by Fedora) and inform us of it. AFAIK we’ve never had any such contact from the Portable team.
>>>
>>> That isn’t how PA present their re-packaging and use of GnuCash.
>> Oh? Please explain.
>
> PA actively moves files and directories about and writes to and from the Registry so that an App can be picked up and put down on more than one PC, conceptually the person takes all their applications with them on a usb stick and plugs it in at work, home and school.  The PA folk take Applications that aren't portable from one system to another (many Windows programmes, GnuCash for example) and makes them Portable.
>
> NB: my paraphrase in explanation, PortableApps.com explains it better.
>
> This was working fine until PA didn't notice the changes between 2.x and 3.x and didn't get clue when things were pointed out to them by myself via e-mail and by reports from users of the portable version (I think distro may not fit, depending on how we define a distro).
>
> There are considerable advantages and conveniences to the PA way when it comes to backups, networked drives, people needing to take GnuCash with them when they go to a conference and so on that GnuCash doesn't natively support because it does stuff that is illogical to me; why would an invoice format or budget that takes hours to build (and almost any other well constructed report of general and regular use) be stored *per_user* and even if it is the same user why store it uniquely *per_a_user's_different_computers* rather than associated closely with the book itself ... but this probably isn't the message for visiting that again.  Clearly someone at GnuCash towers thinks MicroSoft got AppData storage right :(
>
> Hint: Putting something in \AppData\Roaming doesn't mean you take it with you from one PC to another as you roam about.
>
>>>> A question for you: Why did you choose to use GnuCash Portable instead of the GnuCash Windows bundle from www.gnucash.org <http://www.gnucash.org/>?
>>>
>>> I don't use it myself, I use it on other people's behalf.
>>>
>>> Reasons?
>>>
>>> Convenience. I can say "don't update to GnuCash 3.x until it is working right for you" rather than having them try early versions that I know won't do what they expect.
>>>
>>> Backups. PortableApps puts data in more sensible places by default than GnuCash does, or used to.  <--- See the circle here?
>> GnuCash puts data wherever you tell it to. It has defaults, but they’re easily overridden with environment variables.
>
> OK, update the wiki so users understand what to change so all the bits in the weird Windows file space can be put conveniently next to the books they belong to.  <-- that isn't going to happen, is it?  Someone bought into the Windows model of where things go and Reports (and other .gnucash elements) have ended up in very personal space rather than being closely associated with the data (book) they belong to and are completely fucking useless in isolation of said file.  Who in their right mind would want anyone else's
> ..\AppData\Roaming\GnuCash
> without the matching book?
>
> What I think you should have done was put .gnucash in the same dir as the data.  Not hard.  All that is then needed is for Fred and Mary to add their name to their chosen versions of the Balance Sheet rather than this increasing separation of items that belong together.
>
> I mean, if you ran a restaurant would you store the menu a mile away from the people dealing with the food and the customers? <-- I'm not sure that analogy really works but in the interests of self deprecation I'll leave it.  Anything is allowed anywhere in the USA after Trump, right? :)

Wm,

Nothing you said suggests anything other than that Portable Apps is just another distro. The purposes of the distribution and the version tracking are immaterial.

You’re correct that %APPDATA%\Roaming isn’t for sneaker net. It’s for the user’s presence on different machines in a workgroup or Windows Domain.

Apparently what is illogical to you is perfectly reasonable to just about everyone else on the planet. The settings that go into %APPDATA% are that user’s customizations and history. Every other OS also has standard locations for configurations and preferences and we try to keep GnuCash compliant with the standards on each OS. Since those standards have been around for a very long time indeed (almost 50 years in the case of Unix and its derivatives) it seems extremely unlikely to me that Portable Apps don’t have their own convention... but as I said, since they have never to my knowledge communicated with us I have no idea what it might be and there’s no way that we can accommodate them. Of course if they’re modifying any part of GnuCash--including the build system--then they’re obliged to provide their users (not us) with the source code for their modifications.

The bottom line here is that this isn’t the GnuCash project’s problem and we have no way to coerce the Portable Apps folks to fix it for you.

Oh, and the wiki article you want is https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Configuration_Locations <https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Configuration_Locations>.

Regards,
John Ralls
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