[GNC-dev] Gnome HIG

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
18 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

[GNC-dev] Gnome HIG

GnuCash - Dev mailing list
Hello,

In the course of another arduous and lengthy thread, the question of the Gnome HIG came up. I attach the text in question below.

My question is whether the Guide needs changing at 1.2.1, where it says:
Easy to Use Menus: GnuCash menus conform to the GNOME Human Interface Guidelines. This means that they are simple and similar in appearance to many other GNOME applications.

Is this statement inaccurate? Should it be removed?

David

————
Previous discussion:

I don't know about allowing room for it, but it's pretty far in the future because we still have too many Gnome dependencies in the core and too many MVC violations to be able to implement a different toolkit.

Regards,
John Ralls


> On Sep 11, 2018, at 10:23 AM, Adrien Monteleone <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
> Then I misunderstood some earlier discussions about the UI, at least with respect to Linux. What toolkit is envisioned to be used? What layout principles? Or are those questions so far in the future as to not be worth spending time allowing room for?
>
> Regards,
> Adrien
>
>> On Sep 11, 2018, at 12:18 PM, John Ralls <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Sep 11, 2018, at 10:09 AM, Adrien Monteleone <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Sep 11, 2018, at 8:13 AM, David T. via gnucash-devel <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> In other words, unless there is a change in function, there is no need to change the functional description. It seems to me that putting text that doesn’t change into code is essentially a one-time process. Not necessarily easy, but once completed, not particularly obtrusive. Putting the functional description into code has the added benefit, perhaps, of alerting developers to the fact that if they change a feature, the description (right there in the code) needs an update as well.
>>>
>>> While the principles might not change, or even the name/label of certain buttons, the UI layout (where those buttons are, the fact that they are buttons instead of menu entries, etc.) will very likely change as the Gnome HIG is more faithfully implemented. But those code changes shouldn’t affect anything generally in the Guide, and should auto update the context help if it is drawn from the code itself. If not, then consider that attempts to corral GnuCash within the confines of the Gnome HIG, will produce such changes you’re thinking won’t happen.
>>
>> Why do you think we're going to "more faithfully implement" the Gnome HIG? One of our long-term goals is to remove our Gnome dependencies.
>>
>> Regards,
>> John Ralls
>




_______________________________________________
gnucash-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [GNC-dev] Gnome HIG

Adrien Monteleone-2
Since John indicated there is not an effort to adhere to the current Gnome HIG, that statement should probably be removed. (as they don’t conform any longer)

But there are a few places where I think they can be simplified, particularly some items in the Actions menu should probably be moved to Tools.

Regards,
Adrien

> On Sep 14, 2018, at 1:57 PM, David T. via gnucash-devel <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> In the course of another arduous and lengthy thread, the question of the Gnome HIG came up. I attach the text in question below.
>
> My question is whether the Guide needs changing at 1.2.1, where it says:
> Easy to Use Menus: GnuCash menus conform to the GNOME Human Interface Guidelines. This means that they are simple and similar in appearance to many other GNOME applications.
>
> Is this statement inaccurate? Should it be removed?
>
> David
>
> ————
> Previous discussion:
>
> I don't know about allowing room for it, but it's pretty far in the future because we still have too many Gnome dependencies in the core and too many MVC violations to be able to implement a different toolkit.
>
> Regards,
> John Ralls
>
>
>> On Sep 11, 2018, at 10:23 AM, Adrien Monteleone <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>
>> Then I misunderstood some earlier discussions about the UI, at least with respect to Linux. What toolkit is envisioned to be used? What layout principles? Or are those questions so far in the future as to not be worth spending time allowing room for?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Adrien
>>
>>> On Sep 11, 2018, at 12:18 PM, John Ralls <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Sep 11, 2018, at 10:09 AM, Adrien Monteleone <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Sep 11, 2018, at 8:13 AM, David T. via gnucash-devel <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> In other words, unless there is a change in function, there is no need to change the functional description. It seems to me that putting text that doesn’t change into code is essentially a one-time process. Not necessarily easy, but once completed, not particularly obtrusive. Putting the functional description into code has the added benefit, perhaps, of alerting developers to the fact that if they change a feature, the description (right there in the code) needs an update as well.
>>>>
>>>> While the principles might not change, or even the name/label of certain buttons, the UI layout (where those buttons are, the fact that they are buttons instead of menu entries, etc.) will very likely change as the Gnome HIG is more faithfully implemented. But those code changes shouldn’t affect anything generally in the Guide, and should auto update the context help if it is drawn from the code itself. If not, then consider that attempts to corral GnuCash within the confines of the Gnome HIG, will produce such changes you’re thinking won’t happen.
>>>
>>> Why do you think we're going to "more faithfully implement" the Gnome HIG? One of our long-term goals is to remove our Gnome dependencies.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> John Ralls
>>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> gnucash-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel


_______________________________________________
gnucash-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [GNC-dev] Gnome HIG

John Ralls-2
In reply to this post by GnuCash - Dev mailing list
We're probably pretty compliant with the Gnome 2.0 HIG, but the Gnome HIG has changed over the years and GnuCash's UI hasn't. Just switching to Gtk3 probably got us some updates just because Gtk is what implements the HIG, but that would have been largely inadvertent.

For the purposes of the documentation I don't think we should be making any claims like that.

Regards,
John Ralls


> On Sep 14, 2018, at 11:57 AM, David T. via gnucash-devel <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> In the course of another arduous and lengthy thread, the question of the Gnome HIG came up. I attach the text in question below.
>
> My question is whether the Guide needs changing at 1.2.1, where it says:
> Easy to Use Menus: GnuCash menus conform to the GNOME Human Interface Guidelines. This means that they are simple and similar in appearance to many other GNOME applications.
>
> Is this statement inaccurate? Should it be removed?
>
> David
>
> ————
> Previous discussion:
>
> I don't know about allowing room for it, but it's pretty far in the future because we still have too many Gnome dependencies in the core and too many MVC violations to be able to implement a different toolkit.
>
> Regards,
> John Ralls
>
>
>> On Sep 11, 2018, at 10:23 AM, Adrien Monteleone <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>
>> Then I misunderstood some earlier discussions about the UI, at least with respect to Linux. What toolkit is envisioned to be used? What layout principles? Or are those questions so far in the future as to not be worth spending time allowing room for?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Adrien
>>
>>> On Sep 11, 2018, at 12:18 PM, John Ralls <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Sep 11, 2018, at 10:09 AM, Adrien Monteleone <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Sep 11, 2018, at 8:13 AM, David T. via gnucash-devel <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> In other words, unless there is a change in function, there is no need to change the functional description. It seems to me that putting text that doesn’t change into code is essentially a one-time process. Not necessarily easy, but once completed, not particularly obtrusive. Putting the functional description into code has the added benefit, perhaps, of alerting developers to the fact that if they change a feature, the description (right there in the code) needs an update as well.
>>>>
>>>> While the principles might not change, or even the name/label of certain buttons, the UI layout (where those buttons are, the fact that they are buttons instead of menu entries, etc.) will very likely change as the Gnome HIG is more faithfully implemented. But those code changes shouldn’t affect anything generally in the Guide, and should auto update the context help if it is drawn from the code itself. If not, then consider that attempts to corral GnuCash within the confines of the Gnome HIG, will produce such changes you’re thinking won’t happen.
>>>
>>> Why do you think we're going to "more faithfully implement" the Gnome HIG? One of our long-term goals is to remove our Gnome dependencies.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> John Ralls
>>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> gnucash-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel

_______________________________________________
gnucash-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

[GNC-dev] README Overview; was: Gnome HIG

Frank H. Ellenberger-3
As we are already there,

one of you Davids might also review
https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash/blob/maint/README section overview,

and probably  files in
https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash/tree/maint/doc
https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash-docs/blob/maint/gnucash-docs.spec.in
...
which borrow the intro

There have been "shiny new features" of 1.x which no one any longer
would mention for the 3.x series.

Frank

Am 15.09.18 um 00:42 schrieb John Ralls:

> We're probably pretty compliant with the Gnome 2.0 HIG, but the Gnome HIG has changed over the years and GnuCash's UI hasn't. Just switching to Gtk3 probably got us some updates just because Gtk is what implements the HIG, but that would have been largely inadvertent.
>
> For the purposes of the documentation I don't think we should be making any claims like that.
>
> Regards,
> John Ralls
>
>
>> On Sep 14, 2018, at 11:57 AM, David T. via gnucash-devel <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> In the course of another arduous and lengthy thread, the question of the Gnome HIG came up. I attach the text in question below.
>>
>> My question is whether the Guide needs changing at 1.2.1, where it says:
>> Easy to Use Menus: GnuCash menus conform to the GNOME Human Interface Guidelines. This means that they are simple and similar in appearance to many other GNOME applications.
>>
>> Is this statement inaccurate? Should it be removed?
>>
>> David
>>
>> ————
>> Previous discussion:
>>
>> I don't know about allowing room for it, but it's pretty far in the future because we still have too many Gnome dependencies in the core and too many MVC violations to be able to implement a different toolkit.
>>
>> Regards,
>> John Ralls
>>
>>
>>> On Sep 11, 2018, at 10:23 AM, Adrien Monteleone <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Then I misunderstood some earlier discussions about the UI, at least with respect to Linux. What toolkit is envisioned to be used? What layout principles? Or are those questions so far in the future as to not be worth spending time allowing room for?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Adrien
>>>
>>>> On Sep 11, 2018, at 12:18 PM, John Ralls <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Sep 11, 2018, at 10:09 AM, Adrien Monteleone <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sep 11, 2018, at 8:13 AM, David T. via gnucash-devel <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In other words, unless there is a change in function, there is no need to change the functional description. It seems to me that putting text that doesn’t change into code is essentially a one-time process. Not necessarily easy, but once completed, not particularly obtrusive. Putting the functional description into code has the added benefit, perhaps, of alerting developers to the fact that if they change a feature, the description (right there in the code) needs an update as well.
>>>>>
>>>>> While the principles might not change, or even the name/label of certain buttons, the UI layout (where those buttons are, the fact that they are buttons instead of menu entries, etc.) will very likely change as the Gnome HIG is more faithfully implemented. But those code changes shouldn’t affect anything generally in the Guide, and should auto update the context help if it is drawn from the code itself. If not, then consider that attempts to corral GnuCash within the confines of the Gnome HIG, will produce such changes you’re thinking won’t happen.
>>>>
>>>> Why do you think we're going to "more faithfully implement" the Gnome HIG? One of our long-term goals is to remove our Gnome dependencies.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> John Ralls
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gnucash-devel mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
>
> _______________________________________________
> gnucash-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
>

_______________________________________________
gnucash-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [GNC-dev] README Overview; was: Gnome HIG

GnuCash - Dev mailing list


> On Sep 15, 2018, at 5:29 AM, Frank H. Ellenberger <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> As we are already there,
>
> one of you Davids might also review
> https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash/blob/maint/README section overview,
>
> and probably  files in
> https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash/tree/maint/doc
> https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash-docs/blob/maint/gnucash-docs.spec.in
> ...
> which borrow the intro
>
> There have been "shiny new features" of 1.x which no one any longer
> would mention for the 3.x series.
>

Honestly, I think the text in the README would more accurately reflect John’s concerns about the breathless tone found in the Guide, and so I am more likely to put *that* text into the Guide, rather go the other way.

Furthermore, in the interest of eliminating bit rot and in using the right tool for the right job, I would strip the README back drastically to cover only basic technical details on downloading, installing, and running GnuCash. Everything else should go, IMHO.

David

_______________________________________________
gnucash-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [GNC-dev] README Overview; was: Gnome HIG

GnuCash - Dev mailing list


> On Sep 15, 2018, at 12:55 PM, David T. via gnucash-devel <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>
>> On Sep 15, 2018, at 5:29 AM, Frank H. Ellenberger <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> As we are already there,
>>
>> one of you Davids might also review
>> https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash/blob/maint/README section overview,
>>
>> and probably  files in
>> https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash/tree/maint/doc
>> https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash-docs/blob/maint/gnucash-docs.spec.in
>> ...
>> which borrow the intro
>>
>> There have been "shiny new features" of 1.x which no one any longer
>> would mention for the 3.x series.
>>
>
> Honestly, I think the text in the README would more accurately reflect John’s concerns about the breathless tone found in the Guide, and so I am more likely to put *that* text into the Guide, rather go the other way.
>
> Furthermore, in the interest of eliminating bit rot and in using the right tool for the right job, I would strip the README back drastically to cover only basic technical details on downloading, installing, and running GnuCash. Everything else should go, IMHO.
>
> David
>

To be specific: in the main README, I would eliminate the Overview altogether, and replace it with:

GnuCash is a double entry personal and small business financial management package.

Home Page:
http://www.gnucash.org/

Precompiled binaries:
http://www.gnucash.org/download

That is it.

All the remaining sections should be altered to refer readers to the fuller and more up-to-date information as it resides elsewhere (most notably, on the wiki or website).

> _______________________________________________
> gnucash-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel

_______________________________________________
gnucash-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [GNC-dev] README Overview; was: Gnome HIG

John Ralls-2
In reply to this post by GnuCash - Dev mailing list


> On Sep 15, 2018, at 9:55 AM, David T. <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>
>> On Sep 15, 2018, at 5:29 AM, Frank H. Ellenberger <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> As we are already there,
>>
>> one of you Davids might also review
>> https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash/blob/maint/README section overview,
>>
>> and probably  files in
>> https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash/tree/maint/doc
>> https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash-docs/blob/maint/gnucash-docs.spec.in
>> ...
>> which borrow the intro
>>
>> There have been "shiny new features" of 1.x which no one any longer
>> would mention for the 3.x series.
>>
>
> Honestly, I think the text in the README would more accurately reflect John’s concerns about the breathless tone found in the Guide, and so I am more likely to put *that* text into the Guide, rather go the other way.
>
> Furthermore, in the interest of eliminating bit rot and in using the right tool for the right job, I would strip the README back drastically to cover only basic technical details on downloading, installing, and running GnuCash. Everything else should go, IMHO.

With pointers to where to find the other information, of course...

Regards,
John Ralls
_______________________________________________
gnucash-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [GNC-dev] Gnome HIG

GnuCash - Dev mailing list
In reply to this post by Adrien Monteleone-2
That sounds like program development. I only do documentation.

> On Sep 14, 2018, at 3:37 PM, Adrien Monteleone <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Since John indicated there is not an effort to adhere to the current Gnome HIG, that statement should probably be removed. (as they don’t conform any longer)
>
> But there are a few places where I think they can be simplified, particularly some items in the Actions menu should probably be moved to Tools.
>
> Regards,
> Adrien
>
>> On Sep 14, 2018, at 1:57 PM, David T. via gnucash-devel <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> In the course of another arduous and lengthy thread, the question of the Gnome HIG came up. I attach the text in question below.
>>
>> My question is whether the Guide needs changing at 1.2.1, where it says:
>> Easy to Use Menus: GnuCash menus conform to the GNOME Human Interface Guidelines. This means that they are simple and similar in appearance to many other GNOME applications.
>>
>> Is this statement inaccurate? Should it be removed?
>>
>> David
>>
>> ————
>> Previous discussion:
>>
>> I don't know about allowing room for it, but it's pretty far in the future because we still have too many Gnome dependencies in the core and too many MVC violations to be able to implement a different toolkit.
>>
>> Regards,
>> John Ralls
>>
>>
>>> On Sep 11, 2018, at 10:23 AM, Adrien Monteleone <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Then I misunderstood some earlier discussions about the UI, at least with respect to Linux. What toolkit is envisioned to be used? What layout principles? Or are those questions so far in the future as to not be worth spending time allowing room for?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Adrien
>>>
>>>> On Sep 11, 2018, at 12:18 PM, John Ralls <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Sep 11, 2018, at 10:09 AM, Adrien Monteleone <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sep 11, 2018, at 8:13 AM, David T. via gnucash-devel <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In other words, unless there is a change in function, there is no need to change the functional description. It seems to me that putting text that doesn’t change into code is essentially a one-time process. Not necessarily easy, but once completed, not particularly obtrusive. Putting the functional description into code has the added benefit, perhaps, of alerting developers to the fact that if they change a feature, the description (right there in the code) needs an update as well.
>>>>>
>>>>> While the principles might not change, or even the name/label of certain buttons, the UI layout (where those buttons are, the fact that they are buttons instead of menu entries, etc.) will very likely change as the Gnome HIG is more faithfully implemented. But those code changes shouldn’t affect anything generally in the Guide, and should auto update the context help if it is drawn from the code itself. If not, then consider that attempts to corral GnuCash within the confines of the Gnome HIG, will produce such changes you’re thinking won’t happen.
>>>>
>>>> Why do you think we're going to "more faithfully implement" the Gnome HIG? One of our long-term goals is to remove our Gnome dependencies.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> John Ralls
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gnucash-devel mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> gnucash-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel

_______________________________________________
gnucash-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [GNC-dev] README Overview; was: Gnome HIG

GnuCash - Dev mailing list
In reply to this post by GnuCash - Dev mailing list
And if we’re going there, the main project includes numerous README files in gnucash/doc, all of which need similar treatment. README files for WIN32, HCBI and OFX should IMHO be removed altogether in favor of other venues (didn’t HBCI get replaced by FinTS in, like, 2002?).

David

> On Sep 15, 2018, at 1:21 PM, David T. <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>
>> On Sep 15, 2018, at 12:55 PM, David T. via gnucash-devel <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Sep 15, 2018, at 5:29 AM, Frank H. Ellenberger <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> As we are already there,
>>>
>>> one of you Davids might also review
>>> https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash/blob/maint/README section overview,
>>>
>>> and probably  files in
>>> https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash/tree/maint/doc
>>> https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash-docs/blob/maint/gnucash-docs.spec.in
>>> ...
>>> which borrow the intro
>>>
>>> There have been "shiny new features" of 1.x which no one any longer
>>> would mention for the 3.x series.
>>>
>>
>> Honestly, I think the text in the README would more accurately reflect John’s concerns about the breathless tone found in the Guide, and so I am more likely to put *that* text into the Guide, rather go the other way.
>>
>> Furthermore, in the interest of eliminating bit rot and in using the right tool for the right job, I would strip the README back drastically to cover only basic technical details on downloading, installing, and running GnuCash. Everything else should go, IMHO.
>>
>> David
>>
>
> To be specific: in the main README, I would eliminate the Overview altogether, and replace it with:
>
> GnuCash is a double entry personal and small business financial management package.
>
> Home Page:
> http://www.gnucash.org/
>
> Precompiled binaries:
> http://www.gnucash.org/download
>
> That is it.
>
> All the remaining sections should be altered to refer readers to the fuller and more up-to-date information as it resides elsewhere (most notably, on the wiki or website).
>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gnucash-devel mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
>

_______________________________________________
gnucash-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [GNC-dev] README Overview; was: Gnome HIG

GnuCash - Dev mailing list
In reply to this post by John Ralls-2


> On Sep 15, 2018, at 1:22 PM, John Ralls <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>
>> Furthermore, in the interest of eliminating bit rot and in using the right tool for the right job, I would strip the README back drastically to cover only basic technical details on downloading, installing, and running GnuCash. Everything else should go, IMHO.
>
> With pointers to where to find the other information, of course...
>
> Regards,
> John Ralls


Of course! Always my intention.
_______________________________________________
gnucash-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [GNC-dev] README Overview; was: Gnome HIG

Adrien Monteleone-2
In reply to this post by GnuCash - Dev mailing list
Perhaps ‘double entry accounting’ would be more accurate than ‘financial management’.

Regards,
Adrien

> On Sep 15, 2018, at 12:21 PM, David T. via gnucash-devel <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> To be specific: in the main README, I would eliminate the Overview altogether, and replace it with:
>
> GnuCash is a double entry personal and small business financial management package.
>
> Home Page:
> http://www.gnucash.org/
>
> Precompiled binaries:
> http://www.gnucash.org/download
>
> That is it.
>
> All the remaining sections should be altered to refer readers to the fuller and more up-to-date information as it resides elsewhere (most notably, on the wiki or website).
>


_______________________________________________
gnucash-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [GNC-dev] Gnome HIG

Geert Janssens-4
In reply to this post by Adrien Monteleone-2
Op vrijdag 14 september 2018 21:37:58 CEST schreef Adrien Monteleone:
> Since John indicated there is not an effort to adhere to the current Gnome
> HIG, that statement should probably be removed. (as they don’t conform any
> longer)
>
> But there are a few places where I think they can be simplified,
> particularly some items in the Actions menu should probably be moved to
> Tools.
>
Adrien,

There are certainly lots of improvements to make in user experience. And I
welcome improvements in that area in any case. We may not be gnome oriented in
the long term, but for now we're still using their toolkit (gtk), so I'm not
*against* making Gnome HIG inspired improvements either.

In all the Gnome's HIG recommendations are fairly generic and while reading
them I felt most of them are fairly universal. So even if we consider
switching gui toolkit in the future several of these general principles will
stand.

Which menu items would you move and why ?

Geert


_______________________________________________
gnucash-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [GNC-dev] README Overview; was: Gnome HIG

Geert Janssens-4
In reply to this post by GnuCash - Dev mailing list
Op zaterdag 15 september 2018 19:31:26 CEST schreef David T. via gnucash-
devel:
> And if we’re going there, the main project includes numerous README files in
> gnucash/doc, all of which need similar treatment. README files for WIN32,
> HCBI and OFX should IMHO be removed altogether in favor of other venues
> (didn’t HBCI get replaced by FinTS in, like, 2002?).

The Windows README files are a special case, they serve as introductory text
in the Windows installer. So they can't be removed. But perhaps we can move
them to the gnucash-on-windows repository. I'd have to check where the
installer code expects them and whether we can change this.

As for HBCI I think it's still called like that in Germany. But Frank will
have to confirm this. What other venues do you suggest for HBCI and OFX ?

And as you're finding issues faster than we can fix them, please file a bug
report. It will get lost here on the list archives.

Geert


_______________________________________________
gnucash-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [GNC-dev] Gnome HIG

John Ralls-2
In reply to this post by Geert Janssens-4


> On Sep 16, 2018, at 9:46 AM, Geert Janssens <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Op vrijdag 14 september 2018 21:37:58 CEST schreef Adrien Monteleone:
>> Since John indicated there is not an effort to adhere to the current Gnome
>> HIG, that statement should probably be removed. (as they don’t conform any
>> longer)
>>
>> But there are a few places where I think they can be simplified,
>> particularly some items in the Actions menu should probably be moved to
>> Tools.
>>
> Adrien,
>
> There are certainly lots of improvements to make in user experience. And I
> welcome improvements in that area in any case. We may not be gnome oriented in
> the long term, but for now we're still using their toolkit (gtk), so I'm not
> *against* making Gnome HIG inspired improvements either.
>
> In all the Gnome's HIG recommendations are fairly generic and while reading
> them I felt most of them are fairly universal. So even if we consider
> switching gui toolkit in the future several of these general principles will
> stand.
>
> Which menu items would you move and why ?

To be clear, I'm also in favor of improving the UI, I just don't think we should do it because Gnome says so and I don't think we should be claiming in documentation that we pay much attention to anyone's HIG.

Regards,
John Ralls

_______________________________________________
gnucash-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [GNC-dev] Gnome HIG

Geert Janssens-4
Op zondag 16 september 2018 18:56:47 CEST schreef John Ralls:

> > On Sep 16, 2018, at 9:46 AM, Geert Janssens <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:>
> > Op vrijdag 14 september 2018 21:37:58 CEST schreef Adrien Monteleone:
> >> Since John indicated there is not an effort to adhere to the current
> >> Gnome
> >> HIG, that statement should probably be removed. (as they don’t conform
> >> any
> >> longer)
> >>
> >> But there are a few places where I think they can be simplified,
> >> particularly some items in the Actions menu should probably be moved to
> >> Tools.
> >
> > Adrien,
> >
> > There are certainly lots of improvements to make in user experience. And I
> > welcome improvements in that area in any case. We may not be gnome
> > oriented in the long term, but for now we're still using their toolkit
> > (gtk), so I'm not *against* making Gnome HIG inspired improvements
> > either.
> >
> > In all the Gnome's HIG recommendations are fairly generic and while
> > reading
> > them I felt most of them are fairly universal. So even if we consider
> > switching gui toolkit in the future several of these general principles
> > will stand.
> >
> > Which menu items would you move and why ?
>
> To be clear, I'm also in favor of improving the UI, I just don't think we
> should do it because Gnome says so and I don't think we should be claiming
> in documentation that we pay much attention to anyone's HIG.
>
+1

Geert


_______________________________________________
gnucash-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [GNC-dev] README Overview; was: Gnome HIG

John Ralls-2
In reply to this post by Geert Janssens-4


> On Sep 16, 2018, at 9:55 AM, Geert Janssens <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Op zaterdag 15 september 2018 19:31:26 CEST schreef David T. via gnucash-
> devel:
>> And if we’re going there, the main project includes numerous README files in
>> gnucash/doc, all of which need similar treatment. README files for WIN32,
>> HCBI and OFX should IMHO be removed altogether in favor of other venues
>> (didn’t HBCI get replaced by FinTS in, like, 2002?).
>
> The Windows README files are a special case, they serve as introductory text
> in the Windows installer. So they can't be removed. But perhaps we can move
> them to the gnucash-on-windows repository. I'd have to check where the
> installer code expects them and whether we can change this.

The installer code expects them where they are, of course, but that's easily changed if they really belong somewhere else or should have a different name.

Regards,
John Ralls

_______________________________________________
gnucash-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [GNC-dev] README Overview; was: Gnome HIG

Frank H. Ellenberger-3
In reply to this post by Geert Janssens-4
Am 16.09.18 um 18:55 schrieb Geert Janssens:

> Op zaterdag 15 september 2018 19:31:26 CEST schreef David T. via gnucash-
> devel:
>> And if we’re going there, the main project includes numerous README files in
>> gnucash/doc, all of which need similar treatment. README files for WIN32,
>> HCBI and OFX should IMHO be removed altogether in favor of other venues
>> (didn’t HBCI get replaced by FinTS in, like, 2002?).
>
> The Windows README files are a special case, they serve as introductory text
> in the Windows installer. So they can't be removed. But perhaps we can move
> them to the gnucash-on-windows repository. I'd have to check where the
> installer code expects them and whether we can change this.
>
> As for HBCI I think it's still called like that in Germany. But Frank will
> have to confirm this. What other venues do you suggest for HBCI and OFX ?

Yes, in 2002 FinTS 3.0 was released as successor of HBCI 2.2.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FinTS
A few more details in
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_Transaction_Services

The today most common PIN/TAN methods are strictly seen no part of HBCI,
but of FinTS.

And recently on the german list a banker told a user HBCI is obsolete.
https://lists.gnucash.org/pipermail/gnucash-de/2018-September/010467.html

IIRC, when I started some renaming in our references, Christian had a
few objections. So let us ask him about his recent opinion.

> And as you're finding issues faster than we can fix them, please file a bug
> report. It will get lost here on the list archives.

+1

> Geert

~Frank

_______________________________________________
gnucash-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [GNC-dev] Gnome HIG

David Hampton-3
In reply to this post by GnuCash - Dev mailing list
On Fri, 2018-09-14 at 14:57 -0400, David T. via gnucash-devel wrote:

> Hello,
>
> In the course of another arduous and lengthy thread, the question of
> the Gnome HIG came up. I attach the text in question below.
>
> My question is whether the Guide needs changing at 1.2.1, where it
> says:
> Easy to Use Menus: GnuCash menus conform to the GNOME Human Interface
> Guidelines. This means that they are simple and similar in appearance
> to many other GNOME applications.
>
> Is this statement inaccurate? Should it be removed?

I spent a fair amount of time making sure that it was accurate when it
was written (over a decade ago).  As John mentioned elsewhere, the HIG
has changed over time and Gnucash hasn't, so it should probably be
removed.

David

> David
>
> ————
> Previous discussion:
>
> I don't know about allowing room for it, but it's pretty far in the
> future because we still have too many Gnome dependencies in the core
> and too many MVC violations to be able to implement a different
> toolkit.
>
> Regards,
> John Ralls
>
>
> > On Sep 11, 2018, at 10:23 AM, Adrien Monteleone <
> > [hidden email] <mailto:
> > [hidden email]>> wrote:
> >
> > Then I misunderstood some earlier discussions about the UI, at
> > least with respect to Linux. What toolkit is envisioned to be used?
> > What layout principles? Or are those questions so far in the future
> > as to not be worth spending time allowing room for?
> >
> > Regards,
> > Adrien
> >
> > > On Sep 11, 2018, at 12:18 PM, John Ralls <[hidden email]
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > On Sep 11, 2018, at 10:09 AM, Adrien Monteleone <
> > > > [hidden email] <mailto:
> > > > [hidden email]>> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > On Sep 11, 2018, at 8:13 AM, David T. via gnucash-devel <
> > > > > [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > In other words, unless there is a change in function, there
> > > > > is no need to change the functional description. It seems to
> > > > > me that putting text that doesn’t change into code is
> > > > > essentially a one-time process. Not necessarily easy, but
> > > > > once completed, not particularly obtrusive. Putting the
> > > > > functional description into code has the added benefit,
> > > > > perhaps, of alerting developers to the fact that if they
> > > > > change a feature, the description (right there in the code)
> > > > > needs an update as well.
> > > >
> > > > While the principles might not change, or even the name/label
> > > > of certain buttons, the UI layout (where those buttons are, the
> > > > fact that they are buttons instead of menu entries, etc.) will
> > > > very likely change as the Gnome HIG is more faithfully
> > > > implemented. But those code changes shouldn’t affect anything
> > > > generally in the Guide, and should auto update the context help
> > > > if it is drawn from the code itself. If not, then consider that
> > > > attempts to corral GnuCash within the confines of the Gnome
> > > > HIG, will produce such changes you’re thinking won’t happen.
> > >
> > > Why do you think we're going to "more faithfully implement" the
> > > Gnome HIG? One of our long-term goals is to remove our Gnome
> > > dependencies.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > John Ralls
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> gnucash-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel

_______________________________________________
gnucash-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel