[GNC] Why duplicate reports in 3.2?

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[GNC] Why duplicate reports in 3.2?

Rich Shepard
   I'm not an accountant so when I saw that a report menu has both Income
Statement and Profit & Loss as reports I looked up the difference in
wikipedia. While there are apparently subtle differences meaningful to those
wearing green eye shades, the reports for both are identical.

   Sure enough, when I prepared financial reports for June to send to my
accountant I saw that these two were the same, line-by-line. What is the
reason for having both available?

A curious mind wants to know,

Rich
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Re: [GNC] Why duplicate reports in 3.2?

Maf. King
On Wednesday, 11 July 2018 23:04:47 BST Rich Shepard wrote:

>    I'm not an accountant so when I saw that a report menu has both Income
> Statement and Profit & Loss as reports I looked up the difference in
> wikipedia. While there are apparently subtle differences meaningful to those
> wearing green eye shades, the reports for both are identical.
>
>    Sure enough, when I prepared financial reports for June to send to my
> accountant I saw that these two were the same, line-by-line. What is the
> reason for having both available?
>
> A curious mind wants to know,
>
> Rich

Hi Rich,

AFAIK, it is just historical.  GC shipped with a report called "P&L" but some
people said "That's an income Statement", so it was renamed.  Then there were
howls of "Where's the P&L report gone" so the same report was put back in but
with 2 names..... yes, they should be identical output.

(Of course, it may be that the Income Statement was the original name, and P&L
was the rename. Truly can't remember, it was years ago)

HTH,
Maf.




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Re: [GNC] Why duplicate reports in 3.2?

Rich Shepard
On Thu, 12 Jul 2018, Maf. King wrote:

> AFAIK, it is just historical. GC shipped with a report called "P&L" but
> some people said "That's an income Statement", so it was renamed. Then
> there were howls of "Where's the P&L report gone" so the same report was
> put back in but with 2 names..... yes, they should be identical output.
>
> (Of course, it may be that the Income Statement was the original name, and
> P&L was the rename. Truly can't remember, it was years ago)

Maf.,

   Wikipedia provides a nice definition:

"An income statement or profit and loss account (also referred to as a
profit and loss statement (P&L), statement of profit or loss, revenue
statement, statement of financial performance, earnings statement, operating
statement, or statement of operations) is one of the financial statements of
a company and shows the company’s revenues and expenses during a particular
period. It indicates how the revenues (money received from the sale of
products and services before expenses are taken out, also known as the “top
line”) are transformed into the net income (the result after all revenues
and expenses have been accounted for, also known as “net profit” or the
“bottom line”). The purpose of the income statement is to show managers and
investors whether the company made or lost money during the period being
reported."

   Perhaps the Report menu could be re-worded so that Profit & Loss entry
reads, "See Income Statement." Just my $0.10 (adjusting for inflation.)

Thanks for your explanation,

Rich

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Re: [GNC] Why duplicate reports in 3.2?

Adrien Monteleone-2
If I had a vote, I’d say keep one and just delete the other entirely. Even a ’see also’ is just clutter.

As to which name to keep, the easiest and likely most discoverable is “Income Statement”.

Alternatively, and this would require a RFE, would be to have it named according to the Chart of Accounts created by the First Start Wizard, e.g.—non-profit orgs I believe use “Statement of Financial Performance” and a publicly traded for-profit is more likely to use “Earnings Statement”, though this is likely going to be complicated by locale due to jurisdictional requirements. Perhaps prompting the user for a desired name would work best here, with a sane default like “Income Statement.”

Overall, I think the report menu needs some cleanup and re-organization, the Income/P&L issue is definitely some low hanging fruit.

Regards,
Adrien

p.s. — adjusting for inflation from the days of real dollars and cents, your 2¢ is probably more like $1. (or more accurately, 1 bank note with the words “ONE DOLLAR” printed on it)

> On Jul 11, 2018, at 7:26 PM, Rich Shepard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On Thu, 12 Jul 2018, Maf. King wrote:
>
>> AFAIK, it is just historical. GC shipped with a report called "P&L" but
>> some people said "That's an income Statement", so it was renamed. Then
>> there were howls of "Where's the P&L report gone" so the same report was
>> put back in but with 2 names..... yes, they should be identical output.
>>
>> (Of course, it may be that the Income Statement was the original name, and
>> P&L was the rename. Truly can't remember, it was years ago)
>
> Maf.,
>
>  Wikipedia provides a nice definition:
>
> "An income statement or profit and loss account (also referred to as a
> profit and loss statement (P&L), statement of profit or loss, revenue
> statement, statement of financial performance, earnings statement, operating
> statement, or statement of operations) is one of the financial statements of
> a company and shows the company’s revenues and expenses during a particular
> period. It indicates how the revenues (money received from the sale of
> products and services before expenses are taken out, also known as the “top
> line”) are transformed into the net income (the result after all revenues
> and expenses have been accounted for, also known as “net profit” or the
> “bottom line”). The purpose of the income statement is to show managers and
> investors whether the company made or lost money during the period being
> reported."
>
>  Perhaps the Report menu could be re-worded so that Profit & Loss entry
> reads, "See Income Statement." Just my $0.10 (adjusting for inflation.)
>
> Thanks for your explanation,
>
> Rich
>
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Re: [GNC] Why duplicate reports in 3.2?

Mike or Penny Novack-3
On 7/12/2018 12:34 AM, Adrien Monteleone wrote:
> If I had a vote, I’d say keep one and just delete the other entirely. Even a ’see also’ is just clutter.
>
> As to which name to keep, the easiest and likely most discoverable is “Income Statement”.
>
The "issue" (if there is one) is that this report (in terms of what it
shows) is known be different NAMES depending on the type of entity for
which the books are being kept. Note that the name of the report (in
gnucash) and the title of the report in the report itself need not be
the same (you can change the title via Edit=>Options.

I mainly keep books for non-profits, for which the report is known as
the "Revenue Statement" or "Statement of Revenues and Expenses".

For a for profit business known as "Profit and Loss" and for personal
books "Income Statement".

Michael D Novack
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Re: [GNC] Why duplicate reports in 3.2?

Rich Shepard
In reply to this post by Adrien Monteleone-2
On Wed, 11 Jul 2018, Adrien Monteleone wrote:

> If I had a vote, I’d say keep one and just delete the other entirely. Even
> a ’see also’ is just clutter. As to which name to keep, the easiest and
> likely most discoverable is “Income Statement”.

   +1

> Alternatively, and this would require a RFE, would be to have it named
> according to the Chart of Accounts created by the First Start Wizard,
> e.g.—non-profit orgs I believe use “Statement of Financial Performance”
> and a publicly traded for-profit is more likely to use “Earnings
> Statement”, though this is likely going to be complicated by locale due to
> jurisdictional requirements. Perhaps prompting the user for a desired name
> would work best here, with a sane default like “Income Statement.”

   Perhaps this naming concern is a non-issue. If the menu item reads, Income
Statement, the report options allow a different name to be entered as the
saved/printed report title so non-profits cound enter “Statement of
Financial Performance,” for-profits could enter "Earnings Statement," and
there might even be a way to set these titles as the default.

> p.s. — adjusting for inflation from the days of real dollars and cents,
> your 2¢ is probably more like $1. (or more accurately, 1 bank note with
> the words “ONE DOLLAR” printed on it)

   I was being conservative. :-) Remember how people confused the Anthony
dollar coin for quarters? I was looking for something else and found two
half-dollars stuck away in my chest of drawers. I wondered why we've not
seen them for a long time. When I gave a sales clerk one as part of my
purchase payment he asked, "What is this?" I told him it's a half-dollar,
just as it says on it and is worth 50 cents. The second coin was accepted,
elsewhere, without question by an older clerk.

Rich
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Re: [GNC] Why duplicate reports in 3.2?

Adrien Monteleone-2
In reply to this post by Mike or Penny Novack-3
I understand that perfectly, hence my possible RFE to have the New Book Wizard handle this somehow. (and if it doesn’t, one can always rename it in the options as you mention)

At the very least, regardless of what you want or need to call it, we don’t need two of the same report in the menu. It’s just clutter and serves to add confusion.

Regards,
Adrien

> On Jul 12, 2018, at 7:08 AM, Mike or Penny Novack <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 7/12/2018 12:34 AM, Adrien Monteleone wrote:
>> If I had a vote, I’d say keep one and just delete the other entirely. Even a ’see also’ is just clutter.
>>
>> As to which name to keep, the easiest and likely most discoverable is “Income Statement”.
>>
> The "issue" (if there is one) is that this report (in terms of what it shows) is known be different NAMES depending on the type of entity for which the books are being kept. Note that the name of the report (in gnucash) and the title of the report in the report itself need not be the same (you can change the title via Edit=>Options.
>
> I mainly keep books for non-profits, for which the report is known as the "Revenue Statement" or "Statement of Revenues and Expenses".
>
> For a for profit business known as "Profit and Loss" and for personal books "Income Statement".
>
> Michael D Novack
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Re: [GNC] Why duplicate reports in 3.2?

Adrien Monteleone-2
In reply to this post by Rich Shepard
Try handing anyone under 30 an Ike as payment and amuse yourself with the contortions their face makes as they try to figure it out. Oddly, when I’ve given a real dollar (silver that is) as a tip, I’ve never had anyone act confused and in fact most thought it was cool and some even asked if I was ’sure’ I wanted to part with it. (and they all understood it was worth more than face value)

Regards,
Adrien


>  I was being conservative. :-) Remember how people confused the Anthony
> dollar coin for quarters? I was looking for something else and found two
> half-dollars stuck away in my chest of drawers. I wondered why we've not
> seen them for a long time. When I gave a sales clerk one as part of my
> purchase payment he asked, "What is this?" I told him it's a half-dollar,
> just as it says on it and is worth 50 cents. The second coin was accepted,
> elsewhere, without question by an older clerk.
>
> Rich
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Re: [GNC] Why duplicate reports in 3.2?

GnuCash - User mailing list
In reply to this post by Adrien Monteleone-2
As I understand it, the two menu items call the same report file with different title flags, so there is no overhead in storage or codebase.

Your concern boils down to the fact that both names appear in the menu. 

While this is annoying, it has come up on the lists before that a person has expected to find one of these reports, and wondered where it was—not knowing that it was there under the other name. I believe it was decided that it was easer just to include the same report under both names, making its availability clear to a broader set of users. Unless there is complete agreement in the field for one name over another in all circumstances (and there doesn’t appear to be), it does no harm to include both, in my opinion.

Honestly, it would be more useful in my opinion to clear out the “standard” reports that serve no purpose other than to show a potential report programmer (I haven’t heard of many of those, besides Doug Doughty and Chris Lam) how they might write new reports. The two “vs. Day of Week” reports and the two sample reports come to mind. I'm also unsure of the purpose of most of the Budget reports, and when I asked on the lists for descriptions of these, I did not receive any input, suggesting that I am not alone in wondering at their purpose.

But the two entries for the same report? Not a big deal.

David T.

On July 12, 2018 at 8:51:25 AM, Adrien Monteleone ([hidden email]) wrote:

I understand that perfectly, hence my possible RFE to have the New Book Wizard handle this somehow. (and if it doesn’t, one can always rename it in the options as you mention)

At the very least, regardless of what you want or need to call it, we don’t need two of the same report in the menu. It’s just clutter and serves to add confusion.

Regards,
Adrien

> On Jul 12, 2018, at 7:08 AM, Mike or Penny Novack <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  
> On 7/12/2018 12:34 AM, Adrien Monteleone wrote:
>> If I had a vote, I’d say keep one and just delete the other entirely. Even a ’see also’ is just clutter.
>>  
>> As to which name to keep, the easiest and likely most discoverable is “Income Statement”.
>>  
> The "issue" (if there is one) is that this report (in terms of what it shows) is known be different NAMES depending on the type of entity for which the books are being kept. Note that the name of the report (in gnucash) and the title of the report in the report itself need not be the same (you can change the title via Edit=>Options.
>  
> I mainly keep books for non-profits, for which the report is known as the "Revenue Statement" or "Statement of Revenues and Expenses".
>  
> For a for profit business known as "Profit and Loss" and for personal books "Income Statement".
>  
> Michael D Novack
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Re: [GNC] Why duplicate reports in 3.2?

Christopher Lam

On 13/07/18 05:17, David T. via gnucash-user wrote:

> As I understand it, the two menu items call the same report file with different title flags, so there is no overhead in storage or codebase.
>
> Your concern boils down to the fact that both names appear in the menu.
>
> While this is annoying, it has come up on the lists before that a person has expected to find one of these reports, and wondered where it was—not knowing that it was there under the other name. I believe it was decided that it was easer just to include the same report under both names, making its availability clear to a broader set of users. Unless there is complete agreement in the field for one name over another in all circumstances (and there doesn’t appear to be), it does no harm to include both, in my opinion.
>
> Honestly, it would be more useful in my opinion to clear out the “standard” reports that serve no purpose other than to show a potential report programmer (I haven’t heard of many of those, besides Doug Doughty and Chris Lam) how they might write new reports. The two “vs. Day of Week” reports and the two sample reports come to mind. I'm also unsure of the purpose of most of the Budget reports, and when I asked on the lists for descriptions of these, I did not receive any input, suggesting that I am not alone in wondering at their purpose.
>
> But the two entries for the same report? Not a big deal.
>
Thank you David

Many users have saved reports that depend on the existing reports' guids
being available, so, for now there is little imperative to remove the
duplicated report.

C
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