[GNC] US Bans Free tax Software

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[GNC] US Bans Free tax Software

David Cousens
Just noticed this post.
https://news.yahoo.com/free-irs-software-filing-taxes-191746938.html?fbclid=IwAR3-GIPM3S6SazRqcyKb1Lywu4wMhtWB9Je8YU_cK_usuW4FLf13y07ATJs.
Impact on the use of GnuCash for Tax preparation in the US could be
profound. Looks like the US government is trying to head the same way as the
Brits.  Australia has done something similar recently in that one has to
join a consortium of software developers (at a significant fee) to get full
access to the information needed to build in software communication to the
ATO. The ATO no longer publishes the protocols in use and has outsourced
developmemnt of the protocols to a non-government consortium

David Cousens



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Re: [GNC] US Bans Free tax Software

GnuCash - User mailing list
While it may be lamentable that the US government is headed down this path, if is not necessarily the same disaster...
Since Gnucash is not tax software, and I am not a professional tax expert, I use Gnucash for tracking my finances (including using tax options extensively), and Turbotax to submit my taxes. I use Gnucash to verify the official documents that I receive from various agencies. 

David
 
 
  On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 10:05, David Cousens<[hidden email]> wrote:   Just noticed this post.
https://news.yahoo.com/free-irs-software-filing-taxes-191746938.html?fbclid=IwAR3-GIPM3S6SazRqcyKb1Lywu4wMhtWB9Je8YU_cK_usuW4FLf13y07ATJs.
Impact on the use of GnuCash for Tax preparation in the US could be
profound. Looks like the US government is trying to head the same way as the
Brits.  Australia has done something similar recently in that one has to
join a consortium of software developers (at a significant fee) to get full
access to the information needed to build in software communication to the
ATO. The ATO no longer publishes the protocols in use and has outsourced
developmemnt of the protocols to a non-government consortium

David Cousens



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Re: [GNC] US Bans Free tax Software

S McGraw
In reply to this post by David Cousens
On 4/10/19 10:33 PM, David Cousens wrote:
> Just noticed this post.
> https://news.yahoo.com/free-irs-software-filing-taxes-191746938.html?fbclid=IwAR3-GIPM3S6SazRqcyKb1Lywu4wMhtWB9Je8YU_cK_usuW4FLf13y07ATJs.
> Impact on the use of GnuCash for Tax preparation in the US could be
> profound. Looks like the US government is trying to head the same way as the
> Brits.  Australia has done something similar recently in that one has to
> join a consortium of software developers (at a significant fee) to get full
> access to the information needed to build in software communication to the
> ATO. The ATO no longer publishes the protocols in use and has outsourced
> developmemnt of the protocols to a non-government consortium

I'm don't think will have any effect on Gnucash today because Gnucash
does not do tax preparation: filling out IRS forms and submitting them
electronically to the IRS.  I doubt it would, given the yearly changes
in the forms and regulations.

Never the less it is discouraging news.  The IRS could, and should
provide active forms, with the info they have on taxpayers pre-entered
and with interactive help for entering the rest of it.  The U.S. Democrats
and Republicans seem to have no problems coming together when the target
in screwing American tax payers to the benefit of large corporations.
Business as usual.
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Re: [GNC] US Bans Free tax Software

Jeff Abrahamson
For those who use gnucash for personal finances, I don't see this being
important (to that goal).  As Stuart notes, gnucash provides a way to
understand your finances and prepare to file your taxes, but it doesn't
purport to know anything about tax law.

Probably the bigger issue in the U.S. is the complexity of the tax
system and the creation of an expectation that tax filing is and should
be hard, should require assistance.  (A huge fraction of U.S. tax payers
pay for tax preparation assitance.  In many countries, it is a rare
exception.)  In many European countries, for example, it's a non-event
for most people: either you don't have to file anything at all (assuming
an "uninteresting" financial life) or you just have to rubber stampe
what the tax authorities compute for you (e.g., click a button that says
"ok").  A very small fraction of people have "interesting" tax lives and
so have to do something.

The UK and France, probably among others, have rules that make the use
of FOSS accounting software difficult or illegal.  In France it's under
the guise of preventing people from cheating on VAT.  It's
anti-competitive, of course, but if we were going to start talking about
anti-competitive laws, this might not be the most influential place to
start.

Jeff Abrahamson
http://p27.eu/jeff/
http://transport-nantes.com/


On 11/04/2019 07:28, Stuart McGraw wrote:

> On 4/10/19 10:33 PM, David Cousens wrote:
>> Just noticed this post.
>> https://news.yahoo.com/free-irs-software-filing-taxes-191746938.html?fbclid=IwAR3-GIPM3S6SazRqcyKb1Lywu4wMhtWB9Je8YU_cK_usuW4FLf13y07ATJs.
>>
>> Impact on the use of GnuCash for Tax preparation in the US could be
>> profound. Looks like the US government is trying to head the same way
>> as the
>> Brits.  Australia has done something similar recently in that one has to
>> join a consortium of software developers (at a significant fee) to
>> get full
>> access to the information needed to build in software communication
>> to the
>> ATO. The ATO no longer publishes the protocols in use and has outsourced
>> developmemnt of the protocols to a non-government consortium
>
> I'm don't think will have any effect on Gnucash today because Gnucash
> does not do tax preparation: filling out IRS forms and submitting them
> electronically to the IRS.  I doubt it would, given the yearly changes
> in the forms and regulations.
>
> Never the less it is discouraging news.  The IRS could, and should
> provide active forms, with the info they have on taxpayers pre-entered
> and with interactive help for entering the rest of it.  The U.S.
> Democrats
> and Republicans seem to have no problems coming together when the target
> in screwing American tax payers to the benefit of large corporations.
> Business as usual.
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Re: [GNC] US Bans Free tax Software

Adrien Monteleone-2
In reply to this post by David Cousens
I’m not a fan of the corporate protectionism in the bill, but it doesn’t change anything practical-wise for anyone. It enshrines the status quo. The IRS currently does not have free tax filing software made available to taxpayers. This law prohibits the IRS from ever developing it. (a protectionist kickback to Intuit and H&R Block)

This will have no effect on GnuCash. The bill doesn’t prohibit free tax software from the private sector, it prohibits the IRS from developing it and making it available.

If the bill doesn’t pass, the IRS intends to proceed with plans to develop a free .gov filing system and to mail out pre-filled forms with the data they have on file about you. (essentially, a "check the box that’s correct and sign here, don’t forget to include your payment” form, for those who don’t want to file electronically)

There was an agreement in place that the IRS would not create such a system (undercutting the aforementioned companies) as long as those companies offered free filing to anyone making less than $66k per year. While they do offer such free filing, they tried to hide it and try to cross-sell/upsell other services so that only a small percentage of those eligible actually file for free. Because of this, the IRS has intentions not to continue the agreement.

Regards,
Adrien

> On Apr 10, 2019, at 11:33 PM, David Cousens <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Just noticed this post.
> https://news.yahoo.com/free-irs-software-filing-taxes-191746938.html?fbclid=IwAR3-GIPM3S6SazRqcyKb1Lywu4wMhtWB9Je8YU_cK_usuW4FLf13y07ATJs.
> Impact on the use of GnuCash for Tax preparation in the US could be
> profound. Looks like the US government is trying to head the same way as the
> Brits.  Australia has done something similar recently in that one has to
> join a consortium of software developers (at a significant fee) to get full
> access to the information needed to build in software communication to the
> ATO. The ATO no longer publishes the protocols in use and has outsourced
> developmemnt of the protocols to a non-government consortium
>
> David Cousens

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Re: [GNC] US Bans Free tax Software

randix
In reply to this post by David Cousens
"Impact on the use of GnuCash for Tax preparation in the US could be
profound."

With all due respect, that's a ridiculous conclusion, given what GnuCash is,
how it's used, and what it's used for...



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Re: [GNC] US Bans Free tax Software

David Cousens
In reply to this post by GnuCash - User mailing list
One does have to account for the media's tendency to overdramatize things.  

We do have a web form based submission system  for indiviuals in Australia
or you have the option of submitting through a tax agent. The business
reporting currently has also a similar web portal, but I did see a plan in
place to move business reporting towards all electronic reporting from
software enabled for it in the near future. Assumption is that businesses
will use and can afford products which are enabled for this. Not so good for
charitable, not-for-profit and small startup businesses perhaps.There are
software products similar to turbo tax  currently available and in
development here.

It does seem that the information is available here in a series of
circularly self referncing documents. Last time I explored this I ended up
with 10-12 documents open in Libre Office and 2-3 instances of my browser
each with 10-15 tabs open. I came away very little the wiser in terms of how
I might write software to do this. It does seem to be a work in progress and
I have noticed a few new documents produced by the consortium are now
appearing which make it clearer and fill in gaps and available to the public
at no cost.

I think many countries have the common problem of governments governing for
the benefits of major corporations at the expense of their constituents and
handing off the reponsibilities of government off to private corporations to
profit from. Our major political parties also put aside their differences
here when it comes to turning the screws on the taxpayer so I think it is a
problem by no means unique to the US.

David



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Re: [GNC] US Bans Free tax Software

Alain D D Williams
In reply to this post by David Cousens
On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 11:33:30PM -0500, David Cousens wrote:
> Just noticed this post.
> https://news.yahoo.com/free-irs-software-filing-taxes-191746938.html?fbclid=IwAR3-GIPM3S6SazRqcyKb1Lywu4wMhtWB9Je8YU_cK_usuW4FLf13y07ATJs.

Here is another take on it:

https://www.propublica.org/article/congress-is-about-to-ban-the-government-from-offering-free-online-tax-filing-thank-turbotax

I don't think that GnuCash would be banned; what is/will-be banned is the USA
Tax service from developing its own free tax submission s/ware; it is not a ban
on free tax submission s/ware being developed by others.

What is clear is that it is corruption at the heart of the USA government, money
being used to buy laws that benefit corporations to the detriment of 'the
people'. This is not unique, neither is the USA unique in this - unfortunately.

End of political rant - sorry.

A comment elsewhere in this thread is that GnuCash does not tax submission or
preparation. I think that this will have to change - probably by development of a
collection of country-specific tax plugins or tax reports. The reason is that
governments in insisting on tax being done electronically AND (in the UK at
least) the relevant numbers MUST NOT be copied by hand, ie you could not copy
from GnuCash to some other s/ware; at minimum export to a file and import
elsewhere would be needed.

Some will think: why use GnuCash if I am going to need to use something else as
well - so we might as well bite the bullet.

> Impact on the use of GnuCash for Tax preparation in the US could be
> profound. Looks like the US government is trying to head the same way as the
> Brits.  Australia has done something similar recently in that one has to
> join a consortium of software developers (at a significant fee) to get full
> access to the information needed to build in software communication to the
> ATO. The ATO no longer publishes the protocols in use and has outsourced
> developmemnt of the protocols to a non-government consortium
>
> David Cousens


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Re: [GNC] US Bans Free tax Software

Christopher Lam
>
> A comment elsewhere in this thread is that GnuCash does not tax submission
> or preparation. I think that this will have to change - probably by
> development of a collection of country-specific tax plugins or tax reports.
> The reason is that governments in insisting on tax being done
> electronically AND (in the UK at
> least) the relevant numbers MUST NOT be copied by hand, ie you could not
> copy from GnuCash to some other s/ware; at minimum export to a file and
> import elsewhere would be needed.
>
> Some will think: why use GnuCash if I am going to need to use something
> else as well - so we might as well bite the bullet.
>

Patches welcome!

>
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Re: [GNC] US Bans Free tax Software

Michael or Penny Novack
In reply to this post by David Cousens
On 4/11/2019 12:33 AM, David Cousens wrote:
> Just noticed this post.
> https://news.yahoo.com/free-irs-software-filing-taxes-191746938.html?fbclid=IwAR3-GIPM3S6SazRqcyKb1Lywu4wMhtWB9Je8YU_cK_usuW4FLf13y07ATJs.
> Impact on the use of GnuCash for Tax preparation in the US could be
> profound. Looks like the US government is trying to head the same way as the
> Brits.
Not how I read that article. It simply said that the IRS could not
develop/distribute free tax software. It said nothing about whether
anybody else could do so if they wished. That the government is
forbidden to do something is very different from saying that an NGO, a
non-profit, or for that matter a for profit company cannot do so.

There are LOTS of things forbidden to the government, some forbidden by
the Constitution let alone by statute, that are allowed to persons or
other entities with "personhood".

I know nothing about what the Brits or Aussies are but I seriously doubt
quite as you have been describing. For example, even there I doubt they
are saying that will make something available just to"for profit" entities.

Michael D Novack
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Re: [GNC] US Bans Free tax Software

GnuCash - User mailing list
On 4/11/19 8:45 AM, Michael or Penny Novack wrote:
> Not how I read that article. It simply said that the IRS could not
> develop/distribute free tax software. It said nothing about whether
> anybody else could do so if they wished. That the government is
> forbidden to do something is very different from saying that an NGO, a
> non-profit, or for that matter a for profit company cannot do so.
>
> There are LOTS of things forbidden to the government, some forbidden by
> the Constitution let alone by statute, that are allowed to persons or
> other entities with "personhood".

 U.S. Constitution - Amendment 10
Amendment 10 - Powers of the States and People

<<Back | Table of Contents | Next>>

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor
prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively,
or to the people.

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Re: [GNC] US Bans Free tax Software

David Cousens
In reply to this post by Michael or Penny Novack
Mike

The article was a lot clearer than the headline implied about the intention
of the legislation as were a couple of others I later found. The situation
with regard to the powers of government is different in both Australia and
the UK and the US. We have privileges extended to us rather than guaranteed
constitutional rights as such. The powers of our government particularly wrt
to personal liberty are limited and established much more by legal
convention/case law rather than specific clauses of our constiution than in
the US.

The tax office in Australia has a web portal for individual tax payers into
which we can enter information. Our tax office collects a lot of information
on individuals directly from employers, banks, superannuation providers etc
and a lot of what they have collected can be preloaded into your tax return.
We can also submit through registered tax agents. Our tax office did create
tax software which you could download and use on your own computerhowever
that has been deprecated in favour of the web protal and commercially
available software

Where it is changing is in the returns for businesses which has a plan to be
be totally electronic submisssion in the future with requirements that
establish an auditable trail. I reviewed what was available directly from
their website about two months ago and it was mainly good intentions and no
documentation. I  went through it again todayand there have been a lot of
additional documents added recently. They are still full of circular
references at this stage however. Once businesses are completely digital I
suspect pressure may come on for individual tax payers to also submit

The problem I see for free software developers here is to register as a
developer for the software, you have to be an existing business as you
require a registration only available to an existing registered business.
SDKs and APIs which appear to be written in C# are only available to the
registered developers. The messaging protocols and data formats used are
being developed by a collaboration of the Tax Office with some existing
software developers which does give that group of current developers a
considerable competitive advantage over new entries into the market.  

This effectively cuts developers of free software out of the loop unless
they are able to register a business and makes it hard to get enough
information to even create export files from GnuCash for import to
commercially available software which can do the digital submission. This
was what I initially set out to investigate.

The upside of that is that the protocols being used are industry standard
both for validation and messaging which uses XBRL,JSON and XML for the
message formats. I haven't been able to establish whether the exchanged
messages are encrypted or not at this stage but one would hope they would be
to prevent interception of data streams to validated users. Business
registration requires the issue of a key, but it is not clear in what I have
waded through so far whether this is also used for encryption or only for
user validation.

The initial messages around the UK Making Tax Digital were equally confusing
and appeared to be far more draconian than what has eventuated so far.
Public scrutiny never goes astray.

i think there is some value in comparing how our various governments do
these things. Possibly little chance of influencing them directly but
awareness at least of the differnet approaches used in other countries and
jurisdictions helps .

David



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Re: [GNC] US Bans Free tax Software

Michael or Penny Novack
On 4/11/2019 11:14 AM, David Cousens wrote:
> Mike

>
> The problem I see for free software developers here is to register as a
> developer for the software, you have to be an existing business as you
> require a registration only available to an existing registered business.
> SDKs and APIs which appear to be written in C# are only available to the
> registered developers.
  Yes, I know little in detail about the laws of Britain or Australia. I
do know that "more democratic" in the sense of not having  a defined
constitution/bill of rights << yes, most of us think of a constitution
as a good thing BUT it does limit the will of the majority -- it says
that some things we DON'T decide by vote, etc. >>

On the other hand, I seriously doubt that the only "corporate entities"
that are allowed are "for profit businesses".

In the US, an "entity", for profit or not has a "tax ID number" << EIN
for a corporate entity, SS# for a human person. Thus the 501c3's that I
keep books for have one << just because a non-profit doesn't PAY taxes
doesn't mean it doesn't file anything, doesn't have to be identifiable
to the tax people >>

In my working days, I worked for MassMutual Life Insurance and at least
then we did software in house (it's what I did, design and write
software). One of the worlds largest financials but technically not a
"for profit business" << it is legally a "consumer co-op", owned by the
policy holders >> Do you imagine that if MM applied (for what was being
required to write this software) would be turned down because "not a for
profit business".

I don't know the details of how the gnucash project is organized in the
legal sense, but it is some kind of a non-profit entity.

Michael D Novack



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