[GNC] UK VAT and "Making Tax Digital"

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[GNC] UK VAT and "Making Tax Digital"

Peter von Kaehne
Hi,

We are using Gnucash very gratefully for now over a decade in our small
business. We are VAT registered.

The UK government has declared it requires from this year onwards VAT
businesses to go towards a complete digital solution with their tax
under new law called "Making Tax Digital". All tax records need to be
in a seamless electronic format from entering into books to filing with
the tax office. An API has  been offered

https://developer.service.hmrc.gov.uk/api-documentation/docs/api/service/vat-api/1.0#_retrieve-vat-obligations_get_accordion

The main obstacle I can see for us right now is we have as far as I can
tell no way to file Tax returns from inside the programme.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/vat-notice-70022-making-tax-digital-for-vat/vat-notice-70022-making-tax-digital-for-vat#para-3-2

I quote:

> Functional compatible software is a software program, or set of
> software programs, products or applications, that must be able to:
>
>     record and preserve digital records (see paragraph 3.3)
>     provide to HMRC information and returns from data held in those
> digital records by using the API platform
>     receive information from HMRC via the API platform
>



Is there anything you have in the pipeline? We can hardly be the first
or only who will have a problem...

Many thanks!

Peter


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Re: [GNC] UK VAT and "Making Tax Digital"

Christopher Lam
Hi Peter,

May I ask what are you currently using to generate the VAT reports? Are you
using the Income&GST statement?

Do you intend to use bridging software? If so the GST report could be
upgraded to use them.

On Sun., 17 Feb. 2019, 05:55 Peter von Kaehne <[hidden email] wrote:

> Hi,
>
> We are using Gnucash very gratefully for now over a decade in our small
> business. We are VAT registered.
>
> The UK government has declared it requires from this year onwards VAT
> businesses to go towards a complete digital solution with their tax
> under new law called "Making Tax Digital". All tax records need to be
> in a seamless electronic format from entering into books to filing with
> the tax office. An API has  been offered
>
>
> https://developer.service.hmrc.gov.uk/api-documentation/docs/api/service/vat-api/1.0#_retrieve-vat-obligations_get_accordion
>
> The main obstacle I can see for us right now is we have as far as I can
> tell no way to file Tax returns from inside the programme.
>
>
> https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/vat-notice-70022-making-tax-digital-for-vat/vat-notice-70022-making-tax-digital-for-vat#para-3-2
>
> I quote:
>
> > Functional compatible software is a software program, or set of
> > software programs, products or applications, that must be able to:
> >
> >     record and preserve digital records (see paragraph 3.3)
> >     provide to HMRC information and returns from data held in those
> >       digital records by using the API platform
> >     receive information from HMRC via the API platform
> >
>
>
>
> Is there anything you have in the pipeline? We can hardly be the first
> or only who will have a problem...
>
> Many thanks!
>
> Peter
>
>
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Re: [GNC] UK VAT and "Making Tax Digital"

David Cousens
In reply to this post by Peter von Kaehne
Peter

According to the website there is no requirement that all of the functions
can be done from inside a single program.  E.g.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/vat-notice-70022-making-tax-digital-for-vat/vat-notice-70022-making-tax-digital-for-vat#para-3-2

"HMRC expects that there will be software products available that will
perform all of the functions listed above. Some software programs will not
be able to perform all of these functions by themselves. For example, a
spreadsheet or other software product that is capable of recording and
preserving digital records may not be able to perform the other 2 functions
listed above, but can still be a component of functional compatible software
if it is used in conjunction with one or more programs that do perform those
functions."

The  paragraph following that on Digital Links is also instructive in that
cut and paste is not permitted. Since CSV and or XML links are valid i.e.
export of an XML or CSV file with the required data from GnuCash to a
program which implements the API and can import the XML file and communicate
with HMRC is likely to be the simplest route. The problem is of course that
neither the XML or CSV export of the required tax data exists. If there is
an existing linking program capable of importing XML/CSV data and
communicating it to HMRC, then it would be an obvious choice to target and
create XML/CSV output for to match its input requirements. The obvious
candidate to start from would be the existing Tax Reports and create an XML
file as a secondary output from the creation of the Tax Report and have it
selectable in the tax report options. The current tax report does have an
export in txf format which may also be importable into a suitable  linking
program if that is available

For GnuCash to do this requires someone with the development expertise and
an interest in the problem, i.e. most likely a user with development
expertise who lives in the UK since this requirement is unique to HMRC and
the UK. The ATO in Australia allows us to cut and paste data into a web
portal on their site  in addition to uploading data from business enabled
software directly.

Some of the digital recording requirements would appear to be met by the
ability to associate  scanned copies of external records
(invoice/bills/receipts etc) with specific transactions in GnuCash however
there may be problems associated with the storage location of such files not
being in the GnuCash data file itself. It may be sufficient to have a
directory containing the images in a subdirectory of the directory
containing the data file.

David Cousens



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Re: [GNC] UK VAT and "Making Tax Digital"

Christopher Lam
Hi David and Peter,

Just a couple minor amendments

On 17/2/19 5:23 pm, David Cousens wrote:

> The  paragraph following that on Digital Links is also instructive in that
> cut and paste is not permitted. Since CSV and or XML links are valid i.e.
> export of an XML or CSV file with the required data from GnuCash to a
> program which implements the API and can import the XML file and communicate
> with HMRC is likely to be the simplest route. The problem is of course that
> neither the XML or CSV export of the required tax data exists. If there is
> an existing linking program capable of importing XML/CSV data and
> communicating it to HMRC, then it would be an obvious choice to target and
> create XML/CSV output for to match its input requirements. The obvious
> candidate to start from would be the existing Tax Reports and create an XML
> file as a secondary output from the creation of the Tax Report and have it
> selectable in the tax report options. The current tax report does have an
> export in txf format which may also be importable into a suitable  linking
> program if that is available


The Tax Report is not suitable for other countries. It is hard-coded to
USD, and US taxcodes, and has been adapted for German tax codes, but is
otherwise unmaintained and unintelligible.

I can amend Income-GST-statement, which is tailor-made for periodic
GST/VAT returns, to output CSV or XML. But so far there's little demand
nor willing beta-testers.

The CSV/XML can be submitted to HMRC via MTD Bridging software, of which
there's plenty of free and non-free options. The bridging software must
handle HMRC authentication and encryption, and this is not suitable for
inclusion in GnuCash.

FWIW I use income-gst-statement quarterly successfully for GST returns
via the ATO portal.

C

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Re: [GNC] UK VAT and "Making Tax Digital"

Maf. King
In reply to this post by Christopher Lam
Hi Christopher,

Tanks for alerting me to the GST report

I've been wondering about MTD too. AIUI I'm OK for my return due in April, but
I need to have something in place for the end of July.  My plan was to
eventually select some bridging software, and feed it with numbers from my
existing saved transaction reports that I've been using for many years to get
the correct reporting totals.

That GST report looks like it might be just the thing to save an intermediate
step of a spreadsheet to combine my reports into one list of totals to feed
into the bridge.

my concerns at the moment is how compatible the bridging solutions are with
Linux / Libre Office, and what a stupid idea it is to implement this at the same
time as all the potential massive changes to the rules as a result of UK
leaving the EU.

Maf.


On Sunday, 17 February 2019 00:35:03 GMT Christopher Lam wrote:

> Hi Peter,
>
> May I ask what are you currently using to generate the VAT reports? Are you
> using the Income&GST statement?
>
> Do you intend to use bridging software? If so the GST report could be
> upgraded to use them.
>
> On Sun., 17 Feb. 2019, 05:55 Peter von Kaehne <[hidden email] wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > We are using Gnucash very gratefully for now over a decade in our small
> > business. We are VAT registered.
> >
> > The UK government has declared it requires from this year onwards VAT
> > businesses to go towards a complete digital solution with their tax
> > under new law called "Making Tax Digital". All tax records need to be
> > in a seamless electronic format from entering into books to filing with
> > the tax office. An API has  been offered
> >
> >
> > https://developer.service.hmrc.gov.uk/api-documentation/docs/api/service/v
> > at-api/1.0#_retrieve-vat-obligations_get_accordion
> >
> > The main obstacle I can see for us right now is we have as far as I can
> > tell no way to file Tax returns from inside the programme.
> >
> >
> > https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/vat-notice-70022-making-tax-dig
> > ital-for-vat/vat-notice-70022-making-tax-digital-for-vat#para-3-2>
> > I quote:
> > > Functional compatible software is a software program, or set of
> > >
> > > software programs, products or applications, that must be able to:
> > >     record and preserve digital records (see paragraph 3.3)
> > >     provide to HMRC information and returns from data held in those
> > >    
> > >       digital records by using the API platform
> > >    
> > >     receive information from HMRC via the API platform
> >
> > Is there anything you have in the pipeline? We can hardly be the first
> > or only who will have a problem...
> >
> > Many thanks!
> >
> > Peter
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > gnucash-user mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
> > If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see
> > https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information.
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--
Maf. King
PGP Key fingerprint = 8D68 A91F 733B 2C1F 43B7  2B7C E591 E8E1 0DE7 C542





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Re: [GNC] UK VAT and "Making Tax Digital"

Maf. King
In reply to this post by Christopher Lam
On Sunday, 17 February 2019 11:57:58 GMT Christopher Lam wrote:

>
> I can amend Income-GST-statement, which is tailor-made for periodic
> GST/VAT returns, to output CSV or XML. But so far there's little demand
> nor willing beta-testers.
>

*Raises Hand in the Air*  I'll volunteer to test.  With the caveat that my VAT
is not normally very complicated.  

The GST report I ran earlier this morning spat out numbers which matched my
last quarter's return (generated from customised options to transaction
reports), which is a good start!

Maf.



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Re: [GNC] UK VAT and "Making Tax Digital"

Maf. King
On Sunday, 17 February 2019 12:23:39 GMT Maf. King wrote:

> On Sunday, 17 February 2019 11:57:58 GMT Christopher Lam wrote:
> > I can amend Income-GST-statement, which is tailor-made for periodic
> > GST/VAT returns, to output CSV or XML. But so far there's little demand
> > nor willing beta-testers.
>
> *Raises Hand in the Air*  I'll volunteer to test.  With the caveat that my
> VAT is not normally very complicated.
>
> The GST report I ran earlier this morning spat out numbers which matched my
> last quarter's return (generated from customised options to transaction
> reports), which is a good start!
>
> Maf.

Further to this,  I've found and downloaded a bridging spreadsheet for
LibreOffice (for free, without even having to register an email address) from
https://filemyvatreturn.co.uk/download/  (seems to be a "trading name" for CHM
software, https://www.chm-software.co.uk/companies where you do have to
register to download...)

No endorsement or recommendation to use them, I'm not even a satisfied user
(yet).  Seems that it will cost £7.50 for each VAT return to be filed. But
gotta make a start somewhere.  If anyone else knows of other options, please
do chime into this thread.

According to their help file, all you need is a spreadsheet (or sheets) that
contain the 7 relevant box totals that you link into the downloaded sheet.  It
may be possible to tweak it to (automagically) fill from a CSV file, I'll need
to look at that next month when I have some more time.

I will note that depending on how orderly the exit from the EU ends up, the 7
box totals required may change - but we're not going to know how that
particular cookie is going to crumble yet...

Christopher: what sort of timescale do you think you'll need to tweak the GST
report etc to give CSV out?  There is a clear workflow to export from GC to
Calc and munge the totals there so it isn't especially critical, despite the
first digital filings being due early August. But it seems to me that if a new
workflow can be figured out in time, why tweak the old way first then change a
quarter or two later?

I'm pretty busy the rest of this month, but will do more digging into this in
March.  

Maf.




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Re: [GNC] UK VAT and "Making Tax Digital"

Peter von Kaehne
   I am struggling to.understand at the moment the reporting language,
   which I understand is a lisp variant. But what I can see from reading
   the transaction report's source files, is that all logic is very nicely
   compartmentalized, which makes me wonder if a more general solution
   would not be to have parallel to the html render output csv output for
   all reports which rely upon it. This would then allow a much wider use
   and remove the accusation by another member here on the list that I (or
   others) want something UK specific.
   This would also improve in general interoperability on all kinds of
   levels.
   Peter
   Sent from my mobile. Please forgive shortness, typos and weird
   autocorrects.

   -------- Original Message --------
   Subject: Re: [GNC] UK VAT and "Making Tax Digital"
   From: "Maf. King"
   To: [hidden email]
   CC:

     On Sunday, 17 February 2019 12:23:39 GMT Maf. King wrote:
     > On Sunday, 17 February 2019 11:57:58 GMT Christopher Lam wrote:
     > > I can amend Income-GST-statement, which is tailor-made for
     periodic
     > > GST/VAT returns, to output CSV or XML. But so far there's little
     demand
     > > nor willing beta-testers.
     >
     > *Raises Hand in the Air* I'll volunteer to test. With the caveat
     that my
     > VAT is not normally very complicated.
     >
     > The GST report I ran earlier this morning spat out numbers which
     matched my
     > last quarter's return (generated from customised options to
     transaction
     > reports), which is a good start!
     >
     > Maf.
     Further to this, I've found and downloaded a bridging spreadsheet
     for
     LibreOffice (for free, without even having to register an email
     address) from
     https://filemyvatreturn.co.uk/download/ (seems to be a "trading
     name" for CHM
     software, https://www.chm-software.co.uk/companies where you do have
     to
     register to download...)
     No endorsement or recommendation to use them, I'm not even a
     satisfied user
     (yet). Seems that it will cost £7.50 for each VAT return to be
     filed. But
     gotta make a start somewhere. If anyone else knows of other options,
     please
     do chime into this thread.
     According to their help file, all you need is a spreadsheet (or
     sheets) that
     contain the 7 relevant box totals that you link into the downloaded
     sheet. It
     may be possible to tweak it to (automagically) fill from a CSV file,
     I'll need
     to look at that next month when I have some more time.
     I will note that depending on how orderly the exit from the EU ends
     up, the 7
     box totals required may change - but we're not going to know how
     that
     particular cookie is going to crumble yet...
     Christopher: what sort of timescale do you think you'll need to
     tweak the GST
     report etc to give CSV out? There is a clear workflow to export from
     GC to
     Calc and munge the totals there so it isn't especially critical,
     despite the
     first digital filings being due early August. But it seems to me
     that if a new
     workflow can be figured out in time, why tweak the old way first
     then change a
     quarter or two later?
     I'm pretty busy the rest of this month, but will do more digging
     into this in
     March.
     Maf.
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Re: [GNC] UK VAT and "Making Tax Digital"

Maf. King
On Tuesday, 19 February 2019 11:41:12 GMT [hidden email] wrote:

> I am struggling to.understand at the moment the reporting language, which I
> understand is a lisp variant. But what I can see from reading the
> transaction report's source files, is that all logic is very nicely
> compartmentalized, which makes me wonder if a more general solution would
> not be to have parallel to the html render output csv output for all
> reports which rely upon it. This would then allow a much wider use and
> remove the accusation by another member here on the  list that I (or
> others) want something UK specific.
>
> This would also improve in general interoperability on all kinds of levels.
>
> Peter

Over the years, I've heard on this list several times about open source
development taking place because someone has an itch to scratch.

Those of us in the UK who are affected by MTD have an itch.  I have tried in
the past to wrap my feeble brain around Scheme (I assume the reports are still
in Scheme) and failed completely.  So I know that I can't get far with
anything useful other than mungling numbers from one spreadsheet to another -
though I will as far as I can test the work of others who grok Scheme.

Of course it makes sense that any generalised solution that scratches the MTD
itch and can be useful to others around the world is better than a single-
purpose solution....but that is not a reason to fail to scratch the itch in
the first place!

An option/toolbutton to export the report to CSV in addition to the existing
PDF & HTML choices does seem like a good idea though. I'm not sure that
changing the whole reporting engine to automatically drop CSV files on a user's
disk is such a so smart!


Maf.




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Re: [GNC] UK VAT and "Making Tax Digital"

Maf. King
On Tuesday, 19 February 2019 12:25:30 GMT Maf. King wrote:
> automatically drop CSV files on a
> user's disk is such a so smart!
>

That's what happens when the phone rings... gibberish out.  

started off as "...user's disk is such a good idea" and got half-edited
towards "...user's disk is so smart"

sorry for the lack of native-language ability on my part...

Maf.



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Re: [GNC] UK VAT and "Making Tax Digital"

GnuCash - User mailing list
In reply to this post by Maf. King
<rant>.  As the UK generally shows the world the way, we may as well sort a solution because every mother’s son will soon be asking for it.

If I knew my bits from my bytes I would offer to help but I don’t.

I am becoming Mr Angry over this.  My tiny wine export (to UK) company simply does not turn enough profit for me to pay for the commercial solutions (yes, even £75 a year is difficult as it requires another £2,000 of turnover to cover it. A complete open source solution would be fantastic especially as the government CLAIMS to be open source.

Well done HMRC.  I am shutting the shop (apologies to my few but loyal customers). </rant>




Geoff Jankowski
+33 6 22 93 00 53
+44 7770 584838

iPhone 5SE

> On 19 Feb 2019, at 13:25, Maf. King <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> the

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Re: [GNC] UK VAT and "Making Tax Digital"

Christopher Lam
In reply to this post by Peter von Kaehne
To all interested in beta-testing CSV export, for now I think it's safest
to export CSV in carefully selected reports, because all reports do tables
differently.

After version 3.5 is out of the door (in a couple months) I'll provide some
customized transaction.scm and income-gst-statement.scm which can export
CSV, and could be finalised for 3.6 due mid-year. The current iteration of
these reports depend heavily upon the supporting files which are undergoing
heavy maintenance, and may not work for those using 3.4 releases.
Alternatively anyone comfortable buildling from maint can beta test now :)

C

On Tue, 19 Feb 2019 at 19:42, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:

>    I am struggling to.understand at the moment the reporting language,
>    which I understand is a lisp variant. But what I can see from reading
>    the transaction report's source files, is that all logic is very nicely
>    compartmentalized, which makes me wonder if a more general solution
>    would not be to have parallel to the html render output csv output for
>    all reports which rely upon it. This would then allow a much wider use
>    and remove the accusation by another member here on the list that I (or
>    others) want something UK specific.
>    This would also improve in general interoperability on all kinds of
>    levels.
>    Peter
>    Sent from my mobile. Please forgive shortness, typos and weird
>    autocorrects.
>
>    -------- Original Message --------
>    Subject: Re: [GNC] UK VAT and "Making Tax Digital"
>    From: "Maf. King"
>    To: [hidden email]
>    CC:
>
>      On Sunday, 17 February 2019 12:23:39 GMT Maf. King wrote:
>      > On Sunday, 17 February 2019 11:57:58 GMT Christopher Lam wrote:
>      > > I can amend Income-GST-statement, which is tailor-made for
>      periodic
>      > > GST/VAT returns, to output CSV or XML. But so far there's little
>      demand
>      > > nor willing beta-testers.
>      >
>      > *Raises Hand in the Air* I'll volunteer to test. With the caveat
>      that my
>      > VAT is not normally very complicated.
>      >
>      > The GST report I ran earlier this morning spat out numbers which
>      matched my
>      > last quarter's return (generated from customised options to
>      transaction
>      > reports), which is a good start!
>      >
>      > Maf.
>      Further to this, I've found and downloaded a bridging spreadsheet
>      for
>      LibreOffice (for free, without even having to register an email
>      address) from
>      https://filemyvatreturn.co.uk/download/ (seems to be a "trading
>      name" for CHM
>      software, https://www.chm-software.co.uk/companies where you do have
>      to
>      register to download...)
>      No endorsement or recommendation to use them, I'm not even a
>      satisfied user
>      (yet). Seems that it will cost £7.50 for each VAT return to be
>      filed. But
>      gotta make a start somewhere. If anyone else knows of other options,
>      please
>      do chime into this thread.
>      According to their help file, all you need is a spreadsheet (or
>      sheets) that
>      contain the 7 relevant box totals that you link into the downloaded
>      sheet. It
>      may be possible to tweak it to (automagically) fill from a CSV file,
>      I'll need
>      to look at that next month when I have some more time.
>      I will note that depending on how orderly the exit from the EU ends
>      up, the 7
>      box totals required may change - but we're not going to know how
>      that
>      particular cookie is going to crumble yet...
>      Christopher: what sort of timescale do you think you'll need to
>      tweak the GST
>      report etc to give CSV out? There is a clear workflow to export from
>      GC to
>      Calc and munge the totals there so it isn't especially critical,
>      despite the
>      first digital filings being due early August. But it seems to me
>      that if a new
>      workflow can be figured out in time, why tweak the old way first
>      then change a
>      quarter or two later?
>      I'm pretty busy the rest of this month, but will do more digging
>      into this in
>      March.
>      Maf.
>      _______________________________________________
>      gnucash-user mailing list
>      [hidden email]
>      To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
>      https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
>      If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see
>      https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information.
>      -----
>      Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
>      You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
> _______________________________________________
> gnucash-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
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> -----
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Re: [GNC] UK VAT and "Making Tax Digital"

Peter von Kaehne
   Never built gnucash but I am certainly comfortable trying.
   Christopher, if I hang around for a while as beta tester for this
   feature set, would you want me to subscribe somewhere else? Apart from
   gnucash user?
   Sent from my mobile. Please forgive shortness, typos and weird
   autocorrects.

   -------- Original Message --------
   Subject: Re: [GNC] UK VAT and "Making Tax Digital"
   From: Christopher Lam
   To: [hidden email]
   CC: "Maf. King" ,GnuCash users group

   To all interested in beta-testing CSV export, for now I think it's
   safest to export CSV in carefully selected reports, because all reports
   do tables differently.
   After version 3.5 is out of the door (in a couple months) I'll provide
   some customized transaction.scm and income-gst-statement.scm which can
   export CSV, and could be finalised for 3.6 due mid-year. The current
   iteration of these reports depend heavily upon the supporting files
   which are undergoing heavy maintenance, and may not work for those
   using 3.4 releases. Alternatively anyone comfortable buildling from
   maint can beta test now :)
   C

   On Tue, 19 Feb 2019 at 19:42, [1][hidden email] <[2][hidden email]>
   wrote:

        I am struggling to.understand at the moment the reporting
     language,
        which I understand is a lisp variant. But what I can see from
     reading
        the transaction report's source files, is that all logic is very
     nicely
        compartmentalized, which makes me wonder if a more general
     solution
        would not be to have parallel to the html render output csv
     output for
        all reports which rely upon it. This would then allow a much
     wider use
        and remove the accusation by another member here on the list that
     I (or
        others) want something UK specific.
        This would also improve in general interoperability on all kinds
     of
        levels.
        Peter
        Sent from my mobile. Please forgive shortness, typos and weird
        autocorrects.
        -------- Original Message --------
        Subject: Re: [GNC] UK VAT and "Making Tax Digital"
        From: "Maf. King"
        To: [3][hidden email]
        CC:
          On Sunday, 17 February 2019 12:23:39 GMT Maf. King wrote:
          > On Sunday, 17 February 2019 11:57:58 GMT Christopher Lam
     wrote:
          > > I can amend Income-GST-statement, which is tailor-made for
          periodic
          > > GST/VAT returns, to output CSV or XML. But so far there's
     little
          demand
          > > nor willing beta-testers.
          >
          > *Raises Hand in the Air* I'll volunteer to test. With the
     caveat
          that my
          > VAT is not normally very complicated.
          >
          > The GST report I ran earlier this morning spat out numbers
     which
          matched my
          > last quarter's return (generated from customised options to
          transaction
          > reports), which is a good start!
          >
          > Maf.
          Further to this, I've found and downloaded a bridging
     spreadsheet
          for
          LibreOffice (for free, without even having to register an email
          address) from
          [4]https://filemyvatreturn.co.uk/download/ (seems to be a
     "trading
          name" for CHM
          software, [5]https://www.chm-software.co.uk/companies where you
     do have
          to
          register to download...)
          No endorsement or recommendation to use them, I'm not even a
          satisfied user
          (yet). Seems that it will cost £7.50 for each VAT return to be
          filed. But
          gotta make a start somewhere. If anyone else knows of other
     options,
          please
          do chime into this thread.
          According to their help file, all you need is a spreadsheet (or
          sheets) that
          contain the 7 relevant box totals that you link into the
     downloaded
          sheet. It
          may be possible to tweak it to (automagically) fill from a CSV
     file,
          I'll need
          to look at that next month when I have some more time.
          I will note that depending on how orderly the exit from the EU
     ends
          up, the 7
          box totals required may change - but we're not going to know
     how
          that
          particular cookie is going to crumble yet...
          Christopher: what sort of timescale do you think you'll need to
          tweak the GST
          report etc to give CSV out? There is a clear workflow to export
     from
          GC to
          Calc and munge the totals there so it isn't especially
     critical,
          despite the
          first digital filings being due early August. But it seems to
     me
          that if a new
          workflow can be figured out in time, why tweak the old way
     first
          then change a
          quarter or two later?
          I'm pretty busy the rest of this month, but will do more
     digging
          into this in
          March.
          Maf.
          _______________________________________________
          gnucash-user mailing list
          [6][hidden email]
          To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
          [7]https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
          If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see
          [8]https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more
     information.
          -----
          Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
          You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
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     [9][hidden email]
     To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
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     If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see
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     information.
     -----
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References

   1. mailto:[hidden email]
   2. mailto:[hidden email]
   3. mailto:[hidden email]
   4. https://filemyvatreturn.co.uk/download/
   5. https://www.chm-software.co.uk/companies
   6. mailto:[hidden email]
   7. https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
   8. https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists
   9. mailto:[hidden email]
  10. https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
  11. https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists
_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
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If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information.
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Re: [GNC] UK VAT and "Making Tax Digital"

Christopher Lam
The devel mailing list...

On Wed., 20 Feb. 2019, 06:00 [hidden email] <[hidden email] wrote:

> Never built gnucash but I am certainly comfortable trying.
>
> Christopher, if I hang around for a while as beta tester for this feature
> set, would you want me to subscribe somewhere else? Apart from gnucash
> user?
>
> Sent from my mobile. Please forgive shortness, typos and weird
> autocorrects.
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [GNC] UK VAT and "Making Tax Digital"
> From: Christopher Lam
> To: [hidden email]
> CC: "Maf. King" ,GnuCash users group
>
>
> To all interested in beta-testing CSV export, for now I think it's safest
> to export CSV in carefully selected reports, because all reports do tables
> differently.
>
> After version 3.5 is out of the door (in a couple months) I'll provide
> some customized transaction.scm and income-gst-statement.scm which can
> export CSV, and could be finalised for 3.6 due mid-year. The current
> iteration of these reports depend heavily upon the supporting files which
> are undergoing heavy maintenance, and may not work for those using 3.4
> releases. Alternatively anyone comfortable buildling from maint can beta
> test now :)
>
> C
>
> On Tue, 19 Feb 2019 at 19:42, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>    I am struggling to.understand at the moment the reporting language,
>>    which I understand is a lisp variant. But what I can see from reading
>>    the transaction report's source files, is that all logic is very nicely
>>    compartmentalized, which makes me wonder if a more general solution
>>    would not be to have parallel to the html render output csv output for
>>    all reports which rely upon it. This would then allow a much wider use
>>    and remove the accusation by another member here on the list that I (or
>>    others) want something UK specific.
>>    This would also improve in general interoperability on all kinds of
>>    levels.
>>    Peter
>>    Sent from my mobile. Please forgive shortness, typos and weird
>>    autocorrects.
>>
>>    -------- Original Message --------
>>    Subject: Re: [GNC] UK VAT and "Making Tax Digital"
>>    From: "Maf. King"
>>    To: [hidden email]
>>    CC:
>>
>>      On Sunday, 17 February 2019 12:23:39 GMT Maf. King wrote:
>>      > On Sunday, 17 February 2019 11:57:58 GMT Christopher Lam wrote:
>>      > > I can amend Income-GST-statement, which is tailor-made for
>>      periodic
>>      > > GST/VAT returns, to output CSV or XML. But so far there's little
>>      demand
>>      > > nor willing beta-testers.
>>      >
>>      > *Raises Hand in the Air* I'll volunteer to test. With the caveat
>>      that my
>>      > VAT is not normally very complicated.
>>      >
>>      > The GST report I ran earlier this morning spat out numbers which
>>      matched my
>>      > last quarter's return (generated from customised options to
>>      transaction
>>      > reports), which is a good start!
>>      >
>>      > Maf.
>>      Further to this, I've found and downloaded a bridging spreadsheet
>>      for
>>      LibreOffice (for free, without even having to register an email
>>      address) from
>>      https://filemyvatreturn.co.uk/download/ (seems to be a "trading
>>      name" for CHM
>>      software, https://www.chm-software.co.uk/companies where you do have
>>      to
>>      register to download...)
>>      No endorsement or recommendation to use them, I'm not even a
>>      satisfied user
>>      (yet). Seems that it will cost £7.50 for each VAT return to be
>>      filed. But
>>      gotta make a start somewhere. If anyone else knows of other options,
>>      please
>>      do chime into this thread.
>>      According to their help file, all you need is a spreadsheet (or
>>      sheets) that
>>      contain the 7 relevant box totals that you link into the downloaded
>>      sheet. It
>>      may be possible to tweak it to (automagically) fill from a CSV file,
>>      I'll need
>>      to look at that next month when I have some more time.
>>      I will note that depending on how orderly the exit from the EU ends
>>      up, the 7
>>      box totals required may change - but we're not going to know how
>>      that
>>      particular cookie is going to crumble yet...
>>      Christopher: what sort of timescale do you think you'll need to
>>      tweak the GST
>>      report etc to give CSV out? There is a clear workflow to export from
>>      GC to
>>      Calc and munge the totals there so it isn't especially critical,
>>      despite the
>>      first digital filings being due early August. But it seems to me
>>      that if a new
>>      workflow can be figured out in time, why tweak the old way first
>>      then change a
>>      quarter or two later?
>>      I'm pretty busy the rest of this month, but will do more digging
>>      into this in
>>      March.
>>      Maf.
>>      _______________________________________________
>>      gnucash-user mailing list
>>      [hidden email]
>>      To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
>>      https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
>>      If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see
>>      https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information.
>>      -----
>>      Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
>>      You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>> _______________________________________________
>> gnucash-user mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
>> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
>> If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see
>> https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information.
>> -----
>> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
>> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>>
>
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Re: [GNC] UK VAT and "Making Tax Digital"

David Cousens
In reply to this post by Christopher Lam
Chris,

I am taking a closer look at the ATO's direct lodgement API which is a
common business reporting protocol across a number of government agencies as
well as the tax office. At the moment in Australia individuals and sole
traders cannot directly upload their data except through a registered Tax
Agent or BAS(GT) Agent ( separate business providing these services). They
are required to use the online website portal which is a form like web
interface.

Businesses (trusts, partnerships, private and public companies) can either
upload their reports directly or via a Tax/BAS agent This uses a Standard
Business Reporting protocol
(https://www.sbr.gov.au/digital-service-providers) as mentioned above which
uses XBRL (XML business reporting -
https://www.xbrl.org/the-standard/what/specifications/) for messages. (This
seems to be in use in UK,US, Australia and a number of other countries
(https://www.xbrl.org/the-standard/why/who-else-uses-xbrl/) but in what
capacity is not clear. An XBRL taxonomy defines the data elements used in
communicating. These are defined across a range of government services in
Australia by
https://www.taxonomy-collaboration.sbr.gov.au/yeti/resources/yeti-gwt/Yeti.jsp.
Authentication requires an encrypted key (AUSkey) which is issued to
business. This has a set of levels of authorization associated with it which
I have yet to look at closely which individuals acting for a business can be
assigned.

The software development and certification process is well defined
(https://www.sbr.gov.au/digital-service-providers/software-development-steps).
I was hoping that someone had developed a bridging type sodtware as
described in the UK system but as AFAIK most of the authorized software
available are commercial accounting packages
(https://www.sbr.gov.au/australian-taxation-office-ato-browse-form#bas) only
one of which is free.

The ATO business portal web interface can up load XBRL files formatted in
accordance with the Aus SBR taxonomy for the appropriate submission usually
prepared by your nice expensive commercial software. This should be fairly
simple for a BAS return. It has been close to 15 years since I last had to
submit one but from memory it was only 4-5 fields. In this case there is no
authorization required as you are already logged in securely using the
encrypted key so that hassle is avoided. I remember looking at a UK VAT
return sometime ago and it was almost identical to the BAS return.

The problem from the GnuCash perspective will be dealing the country to
country variations in requirements. The HMRC requirement that the data can
only be uploaded in a few specific formats  seems to be an audit trail type
of requirement of some sort,  but when two of those formats (CSV and XML)
are editable with a text editor this seems a bit of a ridiculous
requirement. They are presuming, I guess, that file creation/modifcation
access dates are not hackable. I know in Linux it is possible to make files
immutable to other than a superuser and presume this is the case for other
OS filesystems as well. But short of encryption and using checksums it is
unlikely one could guarantee a file had not been altered. Cutting and
pasting data into a webform should be equally acceptable provided you keep
the original it was cut and paste from but when it comes to tax authorities
trying to reason why can be headache producing.

I will try and see if I can track down the Australian BAS formatts for a
file submission. A report which produces an XML output in which the XML tags
can be configured for individual requirements may be the way to go to meet
both UK and Aus and other requirements easily. A quick check on Canada
indicates their GST/HST is similar to UK and Aus and I guess most of the EU
will be similar as well but I have no info on the reporting
requirements/mechanisms in other countries at this stage. If XBRL is adopted
widely enough it may eeventually become as simple as loading an appropriate
taxonomy file using the  locale setting - long way off though.

I suspect that before too long most business and even individual  reporting
to government authorities will become  completely electronic around the
world. The next generation may never be aware it was ever done an other way,
let alone by snail mail.

Possibly better to switch this part of the discussion to the  dev forum.

David Cousens



-----
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Re: [GNC] UK VAT and "Making Tax Digital"

Christopher Lam
In reply to this post by Christopher Lam
3.5 is out and I promised to offer CSV output. Has anyone confirmed the
exact CSV (or JSON)  format desired by their *bridging* software?

Please be aware that direct communication to HMRC is best done by bridging
software outside gnucash. It'll be a nice project for anyone to do in
python or similar.

On Tue., 19 Feb. 2019, 22:33 Christopher Lam, <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> To all interested in beta-testing CSV export, for now I think it's safest
> to export CSV in carefully selected reports, because all reports do tables
> differently.
>
> After version 3.5 is out of the door (in a couple months) I'll provide
> some customized transaction.scm and income-gst-statement.scm which can
> export CSV, and could be finalised for 3.6 due mid-year. The current
> iteration of these reports depend heavily upon the supporting files which
> are undergoing heavy maintenance, and may not work for those using 3.4
> releases. Alternatively anyone comfortable buildling from maint can beta
> test now :)
>
> C
>
> On Tue, 19 Feb 2019 at 19:42, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>    I am struggling to.understand at the moment the reporting language,
>>    which I understand is a lisp variant. But what I can see from reading
>>    the transaction report's source files, is that all logic is very nicely
>>    compartmentalized, which makes me wonder if a more general solution
>>    would not be to have parallel to the html render output csv output for
>>    all reports which rely upon it. This would then allow a much wider use
>>    and remove the accusation by another member here on the list that I (or
>>    others) want something UK specific.
>>    This would also improve in general interoperability on all kinds of
>>    levels.
>>    Peter
>>    Sent from my mobile. Please forgive shortness, typos and weird
>>    autocorrects.
>>
>>    -------- Original Message --------
>>    Subject: Re: [GNC] UK VAT and "Making Tax Digital"
>>    From: "Maf. King"
>>    To: [hidden email]
>>    CC:
>>
>>      On Sunday, 17 February 2019 12:23:39 GMT Maf. King wrote:
>>      > On Sunday, 17 February 2019 11:57:58 GMT Christopher Lam wrote:
>>      > > I can amend Income-GST-statement, which is tailor-made for
>>      periodic
>>      > > GST/VAT returns, to output CSV or XML. But so far there's little
>>      demand
>>      > > nor willing beta-testers.
>>      >
>>      > *Raises Hand in the Air* I'll volunteer to test. With the caveat
>>      that my
>>      > VAT is not normally very complicated.
>>      >
>>      > The GST report I ran earlier this morning spat out numbers which
>>      matched my
>>      > last quarter's return (generated from customised options to
>>      transaction
>>      > reports), which is a good start!
>>      >
>>      > Maf.
>>      Further to this, I've found and downloaded a bridging spreadsheet
>>      for
>>      LibreOffice (for free, without even having to register an email
>>      address) from
>>      https://filemyvatreturn.co.uk/download/ (seems to be a "trading
>>      name" for CHM
>>      software, https://www.chm-software.co.uk/companies where you do have
>>      to
>>      register to download...)
>>      No endorsement or recommendation to use them, I'm not even a
>>      satisfied user
>>      (yet). Seems that it will cost £7.50 for each VAT return to be
>>      filed. But
>>      gotta make a start somewhere. If anyone else knows of other options,
>>      please
>>      do chime into this thread.
>>      According to their help file, all you need is a spreadsheet (or
>>      sheets) that
>>      contain the 7 relevant box totals that you link into the downloaded
>>      sheet. It
>>      may be possible to tweak it to (automagically) fill from a CSV file,
>>      I'll need
>>      to look at that next month when I have some more time.
>>      I will note that depending on how orderly the exit from the EU ends
>>      up, the 7
>>      box totals required may change - but we're not going to know how
>>      that
>>      particular cookie is going to crumble yet...
>>      Christopher: what sort of timescale do you think you'll need to
>>      tweak the GST
>>      report etc to give CSV out? There is a clear workflow to export from
>>      GC to
>>      Calc and munge the totals there so it isn't especially critical,
>>      despite the
>>      first digital filings being due early August. But it seems to me
>>      that if a new
>>      workflow can be figured out in time, why tweak the old way first
>>      then change a
>>      quarter or two later?
>>      I'm pretty busy the rest of this month, but will do more digging
>>      into this in
>>      March.
>>      Maf.
>>      _______________________________________________
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>>      https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information.
>>      -----
>>      Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
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Re: [GNC] UK VAT and "Making Tax Digital"

Maf. King
On Thursday, 11 April 2019 04:48:31 BST Christopher Lam wrote:
> 3.5 is out and I promised to offer CSV output. Has anyone confirmed the
> exact CSV (or JSON)  format desired by their *bridging* software?
>
> Please be aware that direct communication to HMRC is best done by bridging
> software outside gnucash. It'll be a nice project for anyone to do in
> python or similar.
>

Hi Christopher,

Thanks for looking at this again.

I'll probably be looking at this next week or so.   I'll have to complete my
lasts "traditional" VAT return by around the end of the month.  For the
quarter ending 30th June, I'll report to HMRC towards the end of July, and be
in the first tranche of submittors.

I plan to use a spreadsheet bridge that I found for Libre office.

seems that the sheet as presented requires linking cells from a source report
spreadsheet.

User guide is here explaining how to do it

http://www.chm-software.co.uk/userguide/

(no relationship or recommendation implied)  

I'm thinking that I might be able to adapt their sheet to directly take a CSV
input to named cells in some way.  It is only about half a dozen numbers that
are needed.

Of course, if any other users have come across a more elegant solution, feel
free to chime in!

Maf.




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Re: [GNC] UK VAT and "Making Tax Digital"

Maf. King
Hi Christopher.

Finally got round to completing my final quarter VAT return with the manual
error-prone process of typing 7 numbers into boxes on the HMRC website.

I'm now trying to make the Income & GST report give me sensible numbers that
match my existing saved transaction reports and struggling with one thing.

It may well be how I've got my tree set up that's causing my problem.  The GST
report doesn't allow to  include transactions to asset accounts.

Under UK tax law, if I buy something of lasting value, eg some machine, for
example, it is not an expense but a transfer to Asset:CapitalEquipment.   But
the VAT is claimable straight away and so the transaction (for the VAT return)
should be included in the Net Purchases & Tax on Purchases column.

any advice?

is your CSV output intending to be made from the GST report codebase in some
way?

The bridging spreadsheet I have will be quite happy to read from
~/somewhere/somefile.csv

my test file is just :
Box1,1234.56
Box2, 0.00
(box 3 is calculated from box1+box2 so not included)
Box4, 321.98
etc to include box 6,7,8,9

and the spreadsheet will read that and populate new data into the fields each
time it is run.

the only other thing that might be nice to include in the CSV output is the
date period, but I haven't tested that for format etc yet.


I'm not signed up for the -devel list, can do so if you'd prefer to keep this
off -user for now.

thanks & best regards,
Maf.



On Thursday, 11 April 2019 11:08:27 BST Maf. King wrote:

> On Thursday, 11 April 2019 04:48:31 BST Christopher Lam wrote:
> > 3.5 is out and I promised to offer CSV output. Has anyone confirmed the
> > exact CSV (or JSON)  format desired by their *bridging* software?
> >
> > Please be aware that direct communication to HMRC is best done by bridging
> > software outside gnucash. It'll be a nice project for anyone to do in
> > python or similar.
>
> Hi Christopher,
>
> Thanks for looking at this again.
>
> I'll probably be looking at this next week or so.   I'll have to complete my
> lasts "traditional" VAT return by around the end of the month.  For the
> quarter ending 30th June, I'll report to HMRC towards the end of July, and
> be in the first tranche of submittors.
>
> I plan to use a spreadsheet bridge that I found for Libre office.
>
> seems that the sheet as presented requires linking cells from a source
> report spreadsheet.
>
> User guide is here explaining how to do it
>
> http://www.chm-software.co.uk/userguide/
>
> (no relationship or recommendation implied)
>
> I'm thinking that I might be able to adapt their sheet to directly take a
> CSV input to named cells in some way.  It is only about half a dozen
> numbers that are needed.
>
> Of course, if any other users have come across a more elegant solution, feel
> free to chime in!
>
> Maf.


--
Maf. King
PGP Key fingerprint = 8D68 A91F 733B 2C1F 43B7  2B7C E591 E8E1 0DE7 C542





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Re: [GNC] UK VAT and "Making Tax Digital"

Christopher Lam
Hi Maf

I agree your asset purchases are not going to be accounted for in the
current iteration. This was not thought of during the design.

A short workable answer is to record this asset purchase as an expense, and
immediately create an expense->asset transaction which will satisfy your
VAT requirements and still use the report as it stands. I'm sorry this is
clunky, and the next para explains why

The longer answer was that every VAT/GST related transaction ie.
sales/purchases, record VAT, and periodic submission would need a
transaction of at least 3 splits... moreover we'd need to determine, as
simply as possible, whether it is a purchase or a sale. Hence the decision
made to consider Income split as sales and Expense split as purchases, and
determine vat/gst-split  as asset/liability as well. This allowed a complex
5-split transaction involving both
sales/purchase/vat-collected-on-sales/vat-paid-on-purchases as illustrated
in https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Alternate_Australian_GST_setup and
https://www.gnucash.org/docs/v3/C/gnucash-guide/rpt_standardrpts.html#rpt_gst_statement
.

An alternate strategy *could* be used to determine sales vs purchases, vat
collected vs paid; e.g. use Business Features (which would then force the
user to use invoices/bills for *all* vat/gst purchases, IMHO undesirable!).
The difficult part is to determine a consistent strategy which is
acceptable to users worldwide, and does not inconvenience too much.

Sorry for long answer, hope is informative. If you have a better strategy
to offer, to account for your Asset:Bank -> Asset:CapitalAssets +
VAT:Paid-on-Purchases use cases, I'm all ears! Meanwhile the short
workaround above *may* be an acceptable solution for the current reports...

(w.r.t. CSV output: the following replacement .scm files can produce
something similar)
https://raw
.githubusercontent.com/christopherlam/gnucash/maint-export-csv/gnucash/report/standard-reports/transaction.scm
https://raw
.githubusercontent.com/christopherlam/gnucash/maint-export-csv/gnucash/report/standard-reports/income-gst-statement.scm

On Tue, 30 Apr 2019 at 13:37, Maf. King <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Christopher.
>
> Finally got round to completing my final quarter VAT return with the
> manual
> error-prone process of typing 7 numbers into boxes on the HMRC website.
>
> I'm now trying to make the Income & GST report give me sensible numbers
> that
> match my existing saved transaction reports and struggling with one thing.
>
> It may well be how I've got my tree set up that's causing my problem.  The
> GST
> report doesn't allow to  include transactions to asset accounts.
>
> Under UK tax law, if I buy something of lasting value, eg some machine,
> for
> example, it is not an expense but a transfer to Asset:CapitalEquipment.
>  But
> the VAT is claimable straight away and so the transaction (for the VAT
> return)
> should be included in the Net Purchases & Tax on Purchases column.
>
> any advice?
>
> is your CSV output intending to be made from the GST report codebase in
> some
> way?
>
> The bridging spreadsheet I have will be quite happy to read from
> ~/somewhere/somefile.csv
>
> my test file is just :
> Box1,1234.56
> Box2, 0.00
> (box 3 is calculated from box1+box2 so not included)
> Box4, 321.98
> etc to include box 6,7,8,9
>
> and the spreadsheet will read that and populate new data into the fields
> each
> time it is run.
>
> the only other thing that might be nice to include in the CSV output is
> the
> date period, but I haven't tested that for format etc yet.
>
>
> I'm not signed up for the -devel list, can do so if you'd prefer to keep
> this
> off -user for now.
>
> thanks & best regards,
> Maf.
>
>
>
> On Thursday, 11 April 2019 11:08:27 BST Maf. King wrote:
> > On Thursday, 11 April 2019 04:48:31 BST Christopher Lam wrote:
> > > 3.5 is out and I promised to offer CSV output. Has anyone confirmed the
> > > exact CSV (or JSON)  format desired by their *bridging* software?
> > >
> > > Please be aware that direct communication to HMRC is best done by
> bridging
> > > software outside gnucash. It'll be a nice project for anyone to do in
> > > python or similar.
> >
> > Hi Christopher,
> >
> > Thanks for looking at this again.
> >
> > I'll probably be looking at this next week or so.   I'll have to
> complete my
> > lasts "traditional" VAT return by around the end of the month.  For the
> > quarter ending 30th June, I'll report to HMRC towards the end of July,
> and
> > be in the first tranche of submittors.
> >
> > I plan to use a spreadsheet bridge that I found for Libre office.
> >
> > seems that the sheet as presented requires linking cells from a source
> > report spreadsheet.
> >
> > User guide is here explaining how to do it
> >
> > http://www.chm-software.co.uk/userguide/
> >
> > (no relationship or recommendation implied)
> >
> > I'm thinking that I might be able to adapt their sheet to directly take a
> > CSV input to named cells in some way.  It is only about half a dozen
> > numbers that are needed.
> >
> > Of course, if any other users have come across a more elegant solution,
> feel
> > free to chime in!
> >
> > Maf.
>
>
> --
> Maf. King
> PGP Key fingerprint = 8D68 A91F 733B 2C1F 43B7  2B7C E591 E8E1 0DE7 C542
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [GNC] UK VAT and "Making Tax Digital"

Christian Kluge
Hello All,

since the General GST/VAT report is discussed I just wanted to add that
in the German VAT forms normal purchases aren’t filled in, only the
deductible input VAT thereof.

For acconting of it for tax purposes an asset account is used for cash
based accounting.

The only time purchases are listed is for reverse charge.

Also can the new report round the tax base for output VAT down to full
monetary units?

The next big thing would be cash-based VAT even if submitting a balance
sheet. (Ist-Versteuerung).

Kind regards

Christian Kluge.

Am 30.04.2019 um 17:08 schrieb Christopher Lam:

> Hi Maf
>
> I agree your asset purchases are not going to be accounted for in the
> current iteration. This was not thought of during the design.
>
> A short workable answer is to record this asset purchase as an expense, and
> immediately create an expense->asset transaction which will satisfy your
> VAT requirements and still use the report as it stands. I'm sorry this is
> clunky, and the next para explains why
>
> The longer answer was that every VAT/GST related transaction ie.
> sales/purchases, record VAT, and periodic submission would need a
> transaction of at least 3 splits... moreover we'd need to determine, as
> simply as possible, whether it is a purchase or a sale. Hence the decision
> made to consider Income split as sales and Expense split as purchases, and
> determine vat/gst-split  as asset/liability as well. This allowed a complex
> 5-split transaction involving both
> sales/purchase/vat-collected-on-sales/vat-paid-on-purchases as illustrated
> in https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Alternate_Australian_GST_setup and
> https://www.gnucash.org/docs/v3/C/gnucash-guide/rpt_standardrpts.html#rpt_gst_statement
> .
>
> An alternate strategy *could* be used to determine sales vs purchases, vat
> collected vs paid; e.g. use Business Features (which would then force the
> user to use invoices/bills for *all* vat/gst purchases, IMHO undesirable!).
> The difficult part is to determine a consistent strategy which is
> acceptable to users worldwide, and does not inconvenience too much.
>
> Sorry for long answer, hope is informative. If you have a better strategy
> to offer, to account for your Asset:Bank -> Asset:CapitalAssets +
> VAT:Paid-on-Purchases use cases, I'm all ears! Meanwhile the short
> workaround above *may* be an acceptable solution for the current reports...
>
> (w.r.t. CSV output: the following replacement .scm files can produce
> something similar)
> https://raw
> .githubusercontent.com/christopherlam/gnucash/maint-export-csv/gnucash/report/standard-reports/transaction.scm
> https://raw
> .githubusercontent.com/christopherlam/gnucash/maint-export-csv/gnucash/report/standard-reports/income-gst-statement.scm
>
> On Tue, 30 Apr 2019 at 13:37, Maf. King <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hi Christopher.
>>
>> Finally got round to completing my final quarter VAT return with the
>> manual
>> error-prone process of typing 7 numbers into boxes on the HMRC website.
>>
>> I'm now trying to make the Income & GST report give me sensible numbers
>> that
>> match my existing saved transaction reports and struggling with one thing.
>>
>> It may well be how I've got my tree set up that's causing my problem.  The
>> GST
>> report doesn't allow to  include transactions to asset accounts.
>>
>> Under UK tax law, if I buy something of lasting value, eg some machine,
>> for
>> example, it is not an expense but a transfer to Asset:CapitalEquipment.
>>  But
>> the VAT is claimable straight away and so the transaction (for the VAT
>> return)
>> should be included in the Net Purchases & Tax on Purchases column.
>>
>> any advice?
>>
>> is your CSV output intending to be made from the GST report codebase in
>> some
>> way?
>>
>> The bridging spreadsheet I have will be quite happy to read from
>> ~/somewhere/somefile.csv
>>
>> my test file is just :
>> Box1,1234.56
>> Box2, 0.00
>> (box 3 is calculated from box1+box2 so not included)
>> Box4, 321.98
>> etc to include box 6,7,8,9
>>
>> and the spreadsheet will read that and populate new data into the fields
>> each
>> time it is run.
>>
>> the only other thing that might be nice to include in the CSV output is
>> the
>> date period, but I haven't tested that for format etc yet.
>>
>>
>> I'm not signed up for the -devel list, can do so if you'd prefer to keep
>> this
>> off -user for now.
>>
>> thanks & best regards,
>> Maf.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, 11 April 2019 11:08:27 BST Maf. King wrote:
>>> On Thursday, 11 April 2019 04:48:31 BST Christopher Lam wrote:
>>>> 3.5 is out and I promised to offer CSV output. Has anyone confirmed the
>>>> exact CSV (or JSON)  format desired by their *bridging* software?
>>>>
>>>> Please be aware that direct communication to HMRC is best done by
>> bridging
>>>> software outside gnucash. It'll be a nice project for anyone to do in
>>>> python or similar.
>>>
>>> Hi Christopher,
>>>
>>> Thanks for looking at this again.
>>>
>>> I'll probably be looking at this next week or so.   I'll have to
>> complete my
>>> lasts "traditional" VAT return by around the end of the month.  For the
>>> quarter ending 30th June, I'll report to HMRC towards the end of July,
>> and
>>> be in the first tranche of submittors.
>>>
>>> I plan to use a spreadsheet bridge that I found for Libre office.
>>>
>>> seems that the sheet as presented requires linking cells from a source
>>> report spreadsheet.
>>>
>>> User guide is here explaining how to do it
>>>
>>> http://www.chm-software.co.uk/userguide/
>>>
>>> (no relationship or recommendation implied)
>>>
>>> I'm thinking that I might be able to adapt their sheet to directly take a
>>> CSV input to named cells in some way.  It is only about half a dozen
>>> numbers that are needed.
>>>
>>> Of course, if any other users have come across a more elegant solution,
>> feel
>>> free to chime in!
>>>
>>> Maf.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Maf. King
>> PGP Key fingerprint = 8D68 A91F 733B 2C1F 43B7  2B7C E591 E8E1 0DE7 C542
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
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