[GNC] Transferring portion of mutual fund account to another fund account

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[GNC] Transferring portion of mutual fund account to another fund account

Harry Foerster
Hello I'm a recent user of Gnucash coming over from the Quicken world.

 

I would like to get some guidance on how to properly transfer a portion of a
mutual fund total units in account X into another mutual fund account Y. The
transferred units from account X are taken out on a FIFO basis and into
account Y maintaining the cost basis. This transfer is not a sale and
purchase and as such does not involve capital gains or losses.  I've looked
at the concept of lots and scrubbing but I'm uncertain on how the transfer
gets into the other account.

 

Thanks

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Re: [GNC] Transferring portion of mutual fund account to another fund account

David Carlson-4
If you are in the US and both funds are within the same custodial account
the answer is trivial, just sell one and buy the other.  It only matters
when you withdraw cash.

If you are somehow moving shares from one custodian to another, that is
more complicated.

If they are non-custodial accounts ask your accountant.

David Carlson




On Mon, Feb 4, 2019, 6:37 PM Harry Foerster <[hidden email] wrote:

> Hello I'm a recent user of Gnucash coming over from the Quicken world.
>
>
>
> I would like to get some guidance on how to properly transfer a portion of
> a
> mutual fund total units in account X into another mutual fund account Y.
> The
> transferred units from account X are taken out on a FIFO basis and into
> account Y maintaining the cost basis. This transfer is not a sale and
> purchase and as such does not involve capital gains or losses.  I've looked
> at the concept of lots and scrubbing but I'm uncertain on how the transfer
> gets into the other account.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [GNC] Transferring portion of mutual fund account to another fund account

Christopher Lam
In reply to this post by Harry Foerster
Feel free to experiment your transactions; I'd recommend doing a simplified
transfer on a simple data file first and testing the output.

Please test the portfolio and advanced portfolio reports because they may
not handle these types of transfers, and file bugs on bugzilla if the
reports produce undesirable output.

On Tue., 5 Feb. 2019, 08:37 Harry Foerster <[hidden email] wrote:

> Hello I'm a recent user of Gnucash coming over from the Quicken world.
>
>
>
> I would like to get some guidance on how to properly transfer a portion of
> a
> mutual fund total units in account X into another mutual fund account Y.
> The
> transferred units from account X are taken out on a FIFO basis and into
> account Y maintaining the cost basis. This transfer is not a sale and
> purchase and as such does not involve capital gains or losses.  I've looked
> at the concept of lots and scrubbing but I'm uncertain on how the transfer
> gets into the other account.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
> _______________________________________________
> gnucash-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
> If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see
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Re: [GNC] Transferring portion of mutual fund account to another fund account

Michael or Penny Novack
In reply to this post by David Carlson-4
On 2/4/2019 8:09 PM, David Carlson wrote:

> If you are in the US and both funds are within the same custodial account
> the answer is trivial, just sell one and buy the other.  It only matters
> when you withdraw cash.
>
> If you are somehow moving shares from one custodian to another, that is
> more complicated.
>
> If they are non-custodial accounts ask your accountant.
>
> David Carlson
>
This (correct) answer points out that this was NOT a gnucash question
but rather a question about how to account for a transaction of this
sort no matter what was being used for the bookkeeping (even old
fashioned pen and ink on paper). The problem with questions of this sort
is that while many of us here do know the answer (and "allowed" to use
that knowledge for our own books, few if any of us hold the
"credentials" allowing us to advise others.

That's why we have to say "ask your accountant".

Michael D Novack
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Re: [GNC] Transferring portion of mutual fund account to another fund account

Harry Foerster
It seems this email request has gone sideways a bit.

The actual transactions are being handled by the financial institutions
accordingly and reported to me in statements. I fully believe their
accountants are following the proper Canadian financial security laws.

The crust of my request for assistance was how I could personally record
these transaction into Gnucash; what steps or procedures does Gnucash have
to allow the transfer, on the cost basis, of units between accounts in
Gnucash. Any suggestions or hints on a path to follow is appreciated.
 

-----Original Message-----
From: gnucash-user <gnucash-user-bounces+hfoerster=[hidden email]> On
Behalf Of Michael or Penny Novack
Sent: February 5, 2019 8:58 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [GNC] Transferring portion of mutual fund account to another
fund account

On 2/4/2019 8:09 PM, David Carlson wrote:

> If you are in the US and both funds are within the same custodial
> account the answer is trivial, just sell one and buy the other.  It
> only matters when you withdraw cash.
>
> If you are somehow moving shares from one custodian to another, that
> is more complicated.
>
> If they are non-custodial accounts ask your accountant.
>
> David Carlson
>
This (correct) answer points out that this was NOT a gnucash question but
rather a question about how to account for a transaction of this sort no
matter what was being used for the bookkeeping (even old fashioned pen and
ink on paper). The problem with questions of this sort is that while many of
us here do know the answer (and "allowed" to use that knowledge for our own
books, few if any of us hold the "credentials" allowing us to advise others.

That's why we have to say "ask your accountant".

Michael D Novack
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Re: [GNC] Transferring portion of mutual fund account to another fund account

David Carlson-4
On Tue, Feb 5, 2019 at 10:17 AM Harry Foerster <[hidden email]> wrote:

> It seems this email request has gone sideways a bit.
>
> The actual transactions are being handled by the financial institutions
> accordingly and reported to me in statements. I fully believe their
> accountants are following the proper Canadian financial security laws.
>
> The crust of my request for assistance was how I could personally record
> these transaction into Gnucash; what steps or procedures does Gnucash have
> to allow the transfer, on the cost basis, of units between accounts in
> Gnucash. Any suggestions or hints on a path to follow is appreciated.
>
>
Technically, our answer remains the same, 'Ask your accountant.'

However, once your accountant has given you an answer regarding how
Canadian accountants handle such transactions in their accounting reports
to the government, you can go the the GnuCash Tutorial.

There you can read the Investments section which only covers certain
specific cases but describes a lot of detail about the inner workings of
GnuCash and often leads users to their own creative solutions to coaxing
GnuCash into generating similar reports.

There has also been a lot of discussion in this maillist over the years and
sometimes a user can describe details about, say, how the 'Lots' feature
works or how unrealized income is calculated in reports.  Your question
probably revolves around when and how to track unrealized gains or convert
them to realized gains.  While I know absolutely nothing about how you do
that in Canada, I do know it is far different from the way it is done in
the US, and Carte Blanche assumptions are probably wrong.  There may be
some Canadian users able to share how they track similar situations,
perhaps at your local library.

Most of what you will find here is based on the assumption that the stock
or fund is bought or sold from the same security account at the same
brokerage house, not 'in kind' transfers between brokers or from your
safety deposit box to your broker.

Good Luck,

David Carlson
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Re: [GNC] Transferring portion of mutual fund account to another fund account

David Cousens
In reply to this post by Harry Foerster
Harry,

The procedures associated with buying and selling Stock in the Guide
https://www.gnucash.org/docs/v3/C/gnucash-guide/invest-buy-stock1.html
https://www.gnucash.org/docs/v3/C/gnucash-guide/invest-stockprice1.html
https://www.gnucash.org/docs/v3/C/gnucash-guide/invest-sell1.html
aprticularly the section on selling with lots.
 along with
https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Concept_of_Lots

The transfer can likely be handled as two transactions, one selling units in
the fund you are transferring units from and the other buying units in the
fund you are transferring to. Any expenses would be charged to an
appropriate brokerage expenses accounts. In this case since their is no
capital gain or loss involved presumably the buying and selling price will
be the cost price for the lots involved. This should make any capital gains
and loss calculations 0.

One side effect of this approach is that the recording of the purchase date
for a lot of the first fund will not transfer to thelot for the second fund
which may affect future capital gains/loss calculations. These would have to
be calculated manually.

Both of the above transactions will require a transfer account which could
be a brokerage account under which both fund accounts live for example (see
the guide on setting up invetment accounts
https://www.gnucash.org/docs/v3/C/gnucash-guide/invest_accounts1.html for
how to do this). There should be a credit to the account you are
transferring funds from and a debit to the brokerage account. Then there
should be a credit from the Brokerage account and a debit to the account for
the new fund for the money going into the new fund. If there are expenses
involved these will  a credit to the brokerage account and debit to the
appropriate expense account.  The amounts of the credit for expense and the
credit for the transfer to the new fund from the brokerage account should
sum to equal the debit to the brokerage account associated with the transfer
of funds from the old account. Both the buy and sell transactions will
obviously occur at the same time. Using this approach may also attempt to
generate transactions for 0 amounts to accounts associated with recording
capital gains and losses. I don't know how and if GnuCash handles this case.
It should not create the 0 amount transactions but if it does you could
report it as a bug.

The above is a generic description of one possible approach to handling the
type of transfer you describe and should not be interpreted as accounting
advice or even as the only or correct way to handle the transactions
involved. Whether it is appropriate for your case will depend on the details
of the transactions involved given in the statements from your broker or
institution handlng the funds and your local financial regulations and how
they impact the treatment.

Intuit/Quicken as a commercial product may be able to provide an exact
methodology as they will have legal and accounting experts employed who can
give jurisdiction tailored advice and customize their software for a
specific jurisdiction. GnuCash has no such specific expertise available as
it is  free software and totally developed and maintained by volunteers (in
many jurisdictions around the world) as Michael Novak and others have
indicated.

David Cousens



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Re: [GNC] Transferring portion of mutual fund account to another fund account

cicko
In reply to this post by Harry Foerster
Hi, Harry,

What I do is simply create a transaction which subtracts shares from one
accounts and puts them into the other.
This, of course, does not track the original prices. For that you'd need to
do something similar to what scrubbing does. Note that I don't use scrubbing
as I found it makes things worse for me rather than better. To my
understanding, scrubbing will work at all only if you sell. It will then
match the sold split(s) to the purchased split(s). However, if you buy 10
units twice (10 + 10) at different prices, and then sell (or move) 15 at
once, I don't GnuCash will help you much in keeping track of original
purchase prices for the lot.

In that regard, I'm also interested in what others are doing. For those rare
cases when I do sell, I created a Python script that performs "scrubbing"
in-memory and calculates the original prices for the lots but does not write
anything to the book. Then I can create transactions manually to reflect the
real life. I actually use it mostly for the accurate calculation of the
average purchase price as it takes into account only the prices for the
shares I actually own, assuming FIFO, of course.



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Re: [GNC] Transferring portion of mutual fund account to another fund account

GnuCash - User mailing list
In reply to this post by Harry Foerster


On February 6, 2019, at 2:10 PM, cicko <[hidden email]> wrote:

>Hi, Harry,
>What I do is simply create a transaction which subtracts shares from one
>accounts and puts them into the other.
>This, of course, does not track the original prices. For that you'd need to
>do something similar to what scrubbing does. Note that I don't use scrubbing
>as I found it makes things worse for me rather than better. To my
>understanding, scrubbing will work at all only if you sell. It will then
>match the sold split(s) to the purchased split(s). However, if you buy 10
>units twice (10 + 10) at different prices, and then sell (or move) 15 at
>once, I don't GnuCash will help you much in keeping track of original
>purchase prices for the lot.

Cicko, you're wrong on this point. Gnucash does keep track of each of these lots, and will calculate gains on the separate lots when you scrub lots. The scrub function in this case will actually take your original sell transaction and create lot-based sell splits, and then separate gains transactions for each lot. I have found these transactions to be accurate for mutual funds, where commissions and fees are not specified. With stock sales, I get tripped up by the fees and commissions, which I manually adjust after the fact. Some have noted that a user could record their stock purchases in the same way (i.e., roll the fees into the purchase price) but that rubs my sensibilities (such as they are) the wrong way.I

David


>In that regard, I'm also interested in what others are doing. For those rare
>cases when I do sell, I created a Python script that performs "scrubbing"
>in-memory and calculates the original prices for the lots but does not write
>anything to the book. Then I can create transactions manually to reflect the
>real life. I actually use it mostly for the accurate calculation of the
>average purchase price as it takes into account only the prices for the
>shares I actually own, assuming FIFO, of course.
>--
>Sent from: http://gnucash.1415818.n4.nabble.com/GnuCash-User-f1415819.html
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Re: [GNC] Transferring portion of mutual fund account to another fund account

Harry Foerster
Hi. I've haven't finalized my method to accomplish the fund transfer at
cost, but it does involve selling the specified number of fund units, using
the lots utility and scrubbing. This will generate an orphan capital gain
which can then be used to calculate the cost basis for the specified units.
The entries from the scrubbing are then deleted from the account and the
sell transaction is modified with the value of the calculated cost basis.
The lot and scrubbing utility are again used and should produce a total
orphan capital gain of 0 and the proper entries and transfer to the other
account. This procedure will also create incorrect entries into the price
database for the respective mutual fund units, which should be deleted.

 I'm not quite finished looking into this but it seems to be the way to go
since scrubbing maintains the allotment of the units on a FIFO basis and
future transfers can be done on the remaining lots.

-----Original Message-----
From: gnucash-user <gnucash-user-bounces+hfoerster=[hidden email]> On
Behalf Of D via gnucash-user
Sent: February 6, 2019 7:38 AM
To: alen siljak@gmx. com <[hidden email]>; Gnucash Users
<[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [GNC] Transferring portion of mutual fund account to another
fund account



On February 6, 2019, at 2:10 PM, cicko <[hidden email]> wrote:

>Hi, Harry,
>What I do is simply create a transaction which subtracts shares from
>one accounts and puts them into the other.
>This, of course, does not track the original prices. For that you'd
>need to do something similar to what scrubbing does. Note that I don't
>use scrubbing as I found it makes things worse for me rather than
>better. To my understanding, scrubbing will work at all only if you
>sell. It will then match the sold split(s) to the purchased split(s).
>However, if you buy 10 units twice (10 + 10) at different prices, and
>then sell (or move) 15 at once, I don't GnuCash will help you much in
>keeping track of original purchase prices for the lot.

Cicko, you're wrong on this point. Gnucash does keep track of each of these
lots, and will calculate gains on the separate lots when you scrub lots. The
scrub function in this case will actually take your original sell
transaction and create lot-based sell splits, and then separate gains
transactions for each lot. I have found these transactions to be accurate
for mutual funds, where commissions and fees are not specified. With stock
sales, I get tripped up by the fees and commissions, which I manually adjust
after the fact. Some have noted that a user could record their stock
purchases in the same way (i.e., roll the fees into the purchase price) but
that rubs my sensibilities (such as they are) the wrong way.I

David


>In that regard, I'm also interested in what others are doing. For those
>rare cases when I do sell, I created a Python script that performs
"scrubbing"

>in-memory and calculates the original prices for the lots but does not
>write anything to the book. Then I can create transactions manually to
>reflect the real life. I actually use it mostly for the accurate
>calculation of the average purchase price as it takes into account only
>the prices for the shares I actually own, assuming FIFO, of course.
>--
>Sent from:
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