[GNC] Proposed change of "U+R" and "R" in the Import main matcher.

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[GNC] Proposed change of "U+R" and "R" in the Import main matcher.

David Cousens
I have raised bugs in the
code(https://bugs.gnucash.org/show_bug.cgi?id=797338) and documentation
(https://bugs.gnucash.org/show_bug.cgi?id=797337) proposing changing the
"U+R" and "R" tags in the import main matcher to "U+C" and "C" where the
curent use of R refers to the term reconciliation. The use of the term
reconciliation in this context may cause some confusion with the
reconciliation process of checking transactions for a period against an
external statement, particularly for new users. The import matcher does not
assign a "reconciled" status to an imported transaction but does set it as
"c" cleared. You would not normally be importing transactions in which the
splits to the account being imported to are already reconciled, i.e. marked
"y" in a register however this might occur if you are importing records
separately to a credit and a bank account where there are transfers between
them (credit card payments). In this case the importer would flag the record
not to be imported where there is an exact match to an existing transaction.
AFAIK there is no checking of the reconciliation status of the existing
transaction in GnuCash in the matching process but I may not yet have dug
deeply enough.

In a discussion with John Ralls and Frank Ellenberger over other changes to
the import matcher documentation, I initially proposed "U+M" and "M". John
felt "U+C" and "C were more indicative and clearer.

I am raising this here to canvas a wider audience before making the changes.
Please comment here preferrably (or in the bug comments)  if you have any
objections/support  to the proposed change .

As John has suggested this is copied from GnuCash Dev to GnuCash users to
further widen the input.

David Cousens



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Re: [GNC] Proposed change of "U+R" and "R" in the Import main matcher.

Robin Chattopadhyay
+1

On Mon, Aug 5, 2019 at 7:53 PM David Cousens <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> I have raised bugs in the
> code(https://bugs.gnucash.org/show_bug.cgi?id=797338) and documentation
> (https://bugs.gnucash.org/show_bug.cgi?id=797337) proposing changing the
> "U+R" and "R" tags in the import main matcher to "U+C" and "C" where the
> curent use of R refers to the term reconciliation. The use of the term
> reconciliation in this context may cause some confusion with the
> reconciliation process of checking transactions for a period against an
> external statement, particularly for new users. The import matcher does
> not
> assign a "reconciled" status to an imported transaction but does set it as
> "c" cleared. You would not normally be importing transactions in which the
> splits to the account being imported to are already reconciled, i.e.
> marked
> "y" in a register however this might occur if you are importing records
> separately to a credit and a bank account where there are transfers
> between
> them (credit card payments). In this case the importer would flag the
> record
> not to be imported where there is an exact match to an existing
> transaction.
> AFAIK there is no checking of the reconciliation status of the existing
> transaction in GnuCash in the matching process but I may not yet have dug
> deeply enough.
>
> In a discussion with John Ralls and Frank Ellenberger over other changes
> to
> the import matcher documentation, I initially proposed "U+M" and "M". John
> felt "U+C" and "C were more indicative and clearer.
>
> I am raising this here to canvas a wider audience before making the
> changes.
> Please comment here preferrably (or in the bug comments)  if you have any
> objections/support  to the proposed change .
>
> As John has suggested this is copied from GnuCash Dev to GnuCash users to
> further widen the input.
>
> David Cousens
>
>
>
> -----
> David Cousens
> --
> Sent from: http://gnucash.1415818.n4.nabble.com/GnuCash-User-f1415819.html
> _______________________________________________
> gnucash-user mailing list
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Re: [GNC] Proposed change of "U+R" and "R" in the Import main matcher.

Fross, Michael
I agree as well. This was confusing to me when I started.

 I also think instead of putting a “Y” in the reconciled column in the
register, I would put a “R”.

Michael

On Mon, Aug 5, 2019 at 9:46 PM Robin Chattopadhyay <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> +1
>
> On Mon, Aug 5, 2019 at 7:53 PM David Cousens <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > I have raised bugs in the
> > code(https://bugs.gnucash.org/show_bug.cgi?id=797338) and documentation
> > (https://bugs.gnucash.org/show_bug.cgi?id=797337) proposing changing the
> > "U+R" and "R" tags in the import main matcher to "U+C" and "C" where the
> > curent use of R refers to the term reconciliation. The use of the term
> > reconciliation in this context may cause some confusion with the
> > reconciliation process of checking transactions for a period against an
> > external statement, particularly for new users. The import matcher does
> > not
> > assign a "reconciled" status to an imported transaction but does set it
> as
> > "c" cleared. You would not normally be importing transactions in which
> the
> > splits to the account being imported to are already reconciled, i.e.
> > marked
> > "y" in a register however this might occur if you are importing records
> > separately to a credit and a bank account where there are transfers
> > between
> > them (credit card payments). In this case the importer would flag the
> > record
> > not to be imported where there is an exact match to an existing
> > transaction.
> > AFAIK there is no checking of the reconciliation status of the existing
> > transaction in GnuCash in the matching process but I may not yet have dug
> > deeply enough.
> >
> > In a discussion with John Ralls and Frank Ellenberger over other changes
> > to
> > the import matcher documentation, I initially proposed "U+M" and "M".
> John
> > felt "U+C" and "C were more indicative and clearer.
> >
> > I am raising this here to canvas a wider audience before making the
> > changes.
> > Please comment here preferrably (or in the bug comments)  if you have any
> > objections/support  to the proposed change .
> >
> > As John has suggested this is copied from GnuCash Dev to GnuCash users to
> > further widen the input.
> >
> > David Cousens
> >
> >
> >
> > -----
> > David Cousens
> > --
> > Sent from:
> http://gnucash.1415818.n4.nabble.com/GnuCash-User-f1415819.html
> > _______________________________________________
> > gnucash-user mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
> > If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see
> > https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information.
> > -----
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> > You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
> >
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Re: [GNC] Proposed change of "U+R" and "R" in the Import main matcher.

Kenneth Schneider
On 8/6/19 6:59 AM, Fross, Michael wrote:
> I agree as well. This was confusing to me when I started.
>
>   I also think instead of putting a “Y” in the reconciled column in the
> register, I would put a “R”.
>
> Michael
>

I agree with the 'R' as well.

Ken Schneider

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Re: [GNC] Proposed change of "U+R" and "R" in the Import main matcher.

Greg Feneis
Not an opinion on the reconciliation controls, but if the matcher module is
getting some love, would be neat™ if either the record description, or memo
(or both) could be edited while the pending records are displayed on the
matcher window. When I get home, I'll search for the appropriate
enhancement/bug request to reference.

Kind regards, Greg Feneis
(Pixel 3)


On Tue, Aug 6, 2019, 07:23 Ken Schneider <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 8/6/19 6:59 AM, Fross, Michael wrote:
> > I agree as well. This was confusing to me when I started.
> >
> >   I also think instead of putting a “Y” in the reconciled column in the
> > register, I would put a “R”.
> >
> > Michael
> >
>
> I agree with the 'R' as well.
>
> Ken Schneider
>
> _______________________________________________
> gnucash-user mailing list
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Re: [GNC] Proposed change of "U+R" and "R" in the Import main matcher.

GnuCash - User mailing list
In reply to this post by Fross, Michael
Indeed. I ask myself, "which character do I see after invoking this
option?" It isn't "R"--it is "C."

Furthermore, the imported transaction isn't "Reconciled," it is
"Cleared." You still have to reconcile it.

As for changing the Reconcile value to "R," well, that goes a little
further down the path, and leads me logically to the thought that the
field should then be renamed "Status." At this point, it feels like
we're beginning to stray from the broader (as in beyond GnuCash)
community terminological consensus. And we're making a lot of work for
programmers and documentationers.

David

On 8/6/2019 4:29 PM, Fross, Michael wrote:

> I agree as well. This was confusing to me when I started.
>
>   I also think instead of putting a ???Y??? in the reconciled column in the
> register, I would put a ???R???.
>
> Michael
>
> On Mon, Aug 5, 2019 at 9:46 PM Robin Chattopadhyay <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> +1
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 5, 2019 at 7:53 PM David Cousens <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I have raised bugs in the
>>> code(https://bugs.gnucash.org/show_bug.cgi?id=797338) and documentation
>>> (https://bugs.gnucash.org/show_bug.cgi?id=797337) proposing changing the
>>> "U+R" and "R" tags in the import main matcher to "U+C" and "C" where the
>>> curent use of R refers to the term reconciliation. The use of the term
>>> reconciliation in this context may cause some confusion with the
>>> reconciliation process of checking transactions for a period against an
>>> external statement, particularly for new users. The import matcher does
>>> not
>>> assign a "reconciled" status to an imported transaction but does set it
>> as
>>> "c" cleared. You would not normally be importing transactions in which
>> the
>>> splits to the account being imported to are already reconciled, i.e.
>>> marked
>>> "y" in a register however this might occur if you are importing records
>>> separately to a credit and a bank account where there are transfers
>>> between
>>> them (credit card payments). In this case the importer would flag the
>>> record
>>> not to be imported where there is an exact match to an existing
>>> transaction.
>>> AFAIK there is no checking of the reconciliation status of the existing
>>> transaction in GnuCash in the matching process but I may not yet have dug
>>> deeply enough.
>>>
>>> In a discussion with John Ralls and Frank Ellenberger over other changes
>>> to
>>> the import matcher documentation, I initially proposed "U+M" and "M".
>> John
>>> felt "U+C" and "C were more indicative and clearer.
>>>
>>> I am raising this here to canvas a wider audience before making the
>>> changes.
>>> Please comment here preferrably (or in the bug comments)  if you have any
>>> objections/support  to the proposed change .
>>>
>>> As John has suggested this is copied from GnuCash Dev to GnuCash users to
>>> further widen the input.
>>>
>>> David Cousens
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----
>>> David Cousens
>>> --
>>> Sent from:
>> http://gnucash.1415818.n4.nabble.com/GnuCash-User-f1415819.html
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> gnucash-user mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
>>> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
>>> If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see
>>> https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information.
>>> -----
>>> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
>>> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
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Re: [GNC] Proposed change of "U+R" and "R" in the Import main matcher.

David Carlson-4
I am fine with baby steps before GnuCash is ready for true database
access.  Let's remove the word reconciliation from the import process.

David Carlson

On Tue, Aug 6, 2019, 11:31 AM David T. via gnucash-user <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Indeed. I ask myself, "which character do I see after invoking this
> option?" It isn't "R"--it is "C."
>
> Furthermore, the imported transaction isn't "Reconciled," it is
> "Cleared." You still have to reconcile it.
>
> As for changing the Reconcile value to "R," well, that goes a little
> further down the path, and leads me logically to the thought that the
> field should then be renamed "Status." At this point, it feels like
> we're beginning to stray from the broader (as in beyond GnuCash)
> community terminological consensus. And we're making a lot of work for
> programmers and documentationers.
>
> David
>
> On 8/6/2019 4:29 PM, Fross, Michael wrote:
> > I agree as well. This was confusing to me when I started.
> >
> >   I also think instead of putting a ???Y??? in the reconciled column in
> the
> > register, I would put a ???R???.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> > On Mon, Aug 5, 2019 at 9:46 PM Robin Chattopadhyay <[hidden email]
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> >> +1
> >>
> >> On Mon, Aug 5, 2019 at 7:53 PM David Cousens <[hidden email]>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I have raised bugs in the
> >>> code(https://bugs.gnucash.org/show_bug.cgi?id=797338) and
> documentation
> >>> (https://bugs.gnucash.org/show_bug.cgi?id=797337) proposing changing
> the
> >>> "U+R" and "R" tags in the import main matcher to "U+C" and "C" where
> the
> >>> curent use of R refers to the term reconciliation. The use of the term
> >>> reconciliation in this context may cause some confusion with the
> >>> reconciliation process of checking transactions for a period against an
> >>> external statement, particularly for new users. The import matcher does
> >>> not
> >>> assign a "reconciled" status to an imported transaction but does set it
> >> as
> >>> "c" cleared. You would not normally be importing transactions in which
> >> the
> >>> splits to the account being imported to are already reconciled, i.e.
> >>> marked
> >>> "y" in a register however this might occur if you are importing records
> >>> separately to a credit and a bank account where there are transfers
> >>> between
> >>> them (credit card payments). In this case the importer would flag the
> >>> record
> >>> not to be imported where there is an exact match to an existing
> >>> transaction.
> >>> AFAIK there is no checking of the reconciliation status of the existing
> >>> transaction in GnuCash in the matching process but I may not yet have
> dug
> >>> deeply enough.
> >>>
> >>> In a discussion with John Ralls and Frank Ellenberger over other
> changes
> >>> to
> >>> the import matcher documentation, I initially proposed "U+M" and "M".
> >> John
> >>> felt "U+C" and "C were more indicative and clearer.
> >>>
> >>> I am raising this here to canvas a wider audience before making the
> >>> changes.
> >>> Please comment here preferrably (or in the bug comments)  if you have
> any
> >>> objections/support  to the proposed change .
> >>>
> >>> As John has suggested this is copied from GnuCash Dev to GnuCash users
> to
> >>> further widen the input.
> >>>
> >>> David Cousens
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----
> >>> David Cousens
> >>> --
> >>> Sent from:
> >> http://gnucash.1415818.n4.nabble.com/GnuCash-User-f1415819.html
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> gnucash-user mailing list
> >>> [hidden email]
> >>> To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
> >>> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
> >>> If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see
> >>> https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information.
> >>> -----
> >>> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
> >>> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
> >>>
> >> _______________________________________________
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Re: [GNC] Proposed change of "U+R" and "R" in the Import main matcher.

David Cousens
In reply to this post by Fross, Michael
Michael,

I also agree that marking transactions as "R" when reconciled would be
clearer, however it is not a part of what I propose for these specific
changes at this time.

The importer code is relatively isolated from the core GnuCash functionality
and changes there are unlikely to have a wider impact on the GnuCash.The
proposed changes are mainly labels changes and a few simple documentation
changes with no significant changes in the code functionality and no likely
impact in other parts of the code.

Changing the register code is a little more complex and as it is a change in
the value stored for a property of a transaction, and that may have impacts
in many different areas of the code. There is much more likelihood of
producing undesirable bugs inadvertently. I think it would be better to
treat it as a separate exercise and spend a bit of time researching the
impact before making any changes to the register code.

I am aslo more familiar with the importer code than the register code at
this stage.

David Cousens



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Re: [GNC] Proposed change of "U+R" and "R" in the Import main matcher.

Adrien Monteleone-2
Just curious here,

So, if a user has years (decades even) of historical transactions that have already long ago been officially reconciled, the GnuCash importer does not offer the option of importing this historical data as reconciled but only ‘cleared’?

Thus, someone coming to GnuCash and wanting to import historical records for continuity (taking advantage of reporting that GnuCash offers which other software may not) the user has to re-reconcile each and every period for their entire historical import? Really?

Please someone tell me I misunderstood something...

*note* I get it if this simply hasn’t been implemented or accounted for yet, I just am curious as to the current state of affairs.

Regards,
Adrien

> On Aug 6, 2019, at 7:58 PM, David Cousens <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Michael,
>
> I also agree that marking transactions as "R" when reconciled would be
> clearer, however it is not a part of what I propose for these specific
> changes at this time.
>
> The importer code is relatively isolated from the core GnuCash functionality
> and changes there are unlikely to have a wider impact on the GnuCash.The
> proposed changes are mainly labels changes and a few simple documentation
> changes with no significant changes in the code functionality and no likely
> impact in other parts of the code.
>
> Changing the register code is a little more complex and as it is a change in
> the value stored for a property of a transaction, and that may have impacts
> in many different areas of the code. There is much more likelihood of
> producing undesirable bugs inadvertently. I think it would be better to
> treat it as a separate exercise and spend a bit of time researching the
> impact before making any changes to the register code.
>
> I am aslo more familiar with the importer code than the register code at
> this stage.
>
> David Cousens

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Re: [GNC] Proposed change of "U+R" and "R" in the Import main matcher.

Geert Janssens-4
Op woensdag 7 augustus 2019 04:41:02 CEST schreef Adrien Monteleone:

> Just curious here,
>
> So, if a user has years (decades even) of historical transactions that have
> already long ago been officially reconciled, the GnuCash importer does not
> offer the option of importing this historical data as reconciled but only
> ‘cleared’?
>
> Thus, someone coming to GnuCash and wanting to import historical records for
> continuity (taking advantage of reporting that GnuCash offers which other
> software may not) the user has to re-reconcile each and every period for
> their entire historical import? Really?
>
Yes and no.

The csv import can import reconciliation info so in principle you could import
reconciled transactions.

For the other importers, this isn't implemented. The idea is that you
typically import from bank statements in qif/ofx/csv format and banks don't
have reconcilation information. The other acounting application I use can also
import bank statements, but won't reconcile them either.

Note that correctly imported data is very easy to reconcile: You can just run
a reconcile once at the date of the last imported transaction. The reconcile
process will automatically select each cleared transaction (split actually)
for reconciliation. So assuming there were no errors in the import process,
the user could simply complete the reconciliation by clicking the finish
button.

Regards,

Geert


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Re: [GNC] Proposed change of "U+R" and "R" in the Import main matcher.

Christopher Lam
Hi Geert
Wish to add a small contribution:

On Wed., 7 Aug. 2019, 15:43 Geert Janssens, <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>
> For the other importers, this isn't implemented. The idea is that you
> typically import from bank statements in qif/ofx/csv format and banks
> don't
> have reconcilation information. The other acounting application I use can
> also
> import bank statements, but won't reconcile them either.
>

The qif importer does have ability to set a split's reconciliation status.
The qif C line may specify * cleared X reconciled ! budgeted (unused by
importer) transactions, but I guess only quicken exports should have this
information.



>
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Re: [GNC] Proposed change of "U+R" and "R" in the Import main matcher.

Geert Janssens-4
Op woensdag 7 augustus 2019 10:06:45 CEST schreef Christopher Lam:

> Hi Geert
> Wish to add a small contribution:
>
> On Wed., 7 Aug. 2019, 15:43 Geert Janssens, <[hidden email]>
>
> wrote:
> > For the other importers, this isn't implemented. The idea is that you
> > typically import from bank statements in qif/ofx/csv format and banks
> > don't
> > have reconcilation information. The other acounting application I use can
> > also
> > import bank statements, but won't reconcile them either.
>
> The qif importer does have ability to set a split's reconciliation status.
> The qif C line may specify * cleared X reconciled ! budgeted (unused by
> importer) transactions, but I guess only quicken exports should have this
> information.

Thanks for correcting me :)

Geert


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Re: [GNC] Proposed change of "U+R" and "R" in the Import main matcher.

GnuCash - User mailing list
In reply to this post by Christopher Lam

Building on Christopher's comment, my experience was that if a transaction to be imported has the flag set, Gnucash imports that value. I'm not sure the exact mechanics or heuristics (and it was a long time ago that I migrated to Gnucash), but I know I didn't have to reconcile my imported transactions all over again. 

This is another reason (probably a significant one) not to tinker with the reconcile values, BTW. Someone would have to rewrite every incoming transaction to use 'R' instead of the 'Y' from other apps.

David
 
 
  On Wed, Aug 7, 2019 at 13:38, Christopher Lam<[hidden email]> wrote:   Hi Geert
Wish to add a small contribution:

On Wed., 7 Aug. 2019, 15:43 Geert Janssens, <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>
> For the other importers, this isn't implemented. The idea is that you
> typically import from bank statements in qif/ofx/csv format and banks
> don't
> have reconcilation information. The other acounting application I use can
> also
> import bank statements, but won't reconcile them either.
>

The qif importer does have ability to set a split's reconciliation status.
The qif C line may specify * cleared X reconciled ! budgeted (unused by
importer) transactions, but I guess only quicken exports should have this
information.



>
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Re: [GNC] Proposed change of "U+R" and "R" in the Import main matcher.

David Cousens
In reply to this post by Adrien Monteleone-2
Adrien,

Even if it has been reconciled in another program I think you would want to
check the reconciliation to make sure the importer had imported everything
completely. The reconciliation process should be very quick if the import
has been correct.

I think as Geert mentoins in another post, GnuCash data can be exported with
the reconcilation status and in that case one might want to import the
reconcilation status. Eg if shifting historical records to another book to
keep the file size small for those who do that. The purpose of the U+R and R
in the import matcher itself is really to indicate the satus of the match
and AFAIK it doesn't even use the reconciled status information in a
transaction in the matching process, at least in the code I have looked
through so far.

It was why I initially proposed U+M and M as an alternative to make clear
that it really is the status of the match and nothing to do with the actual
reconciliataion status of the transaction. Even using "U+C" and "C" in the
importer could in principle lead new users to confusing the status of the
match with the reconciliation status. In the case where the status of an
imported transaction was reconciled, it may make some sense to override the
"c" setting on import. But since reconciliation is about checking the data
in the book it is being imported to, I personally would prefer that it be
imported as cleared and then set to reconciled in a proper reconciliation
process not the  import process which might contain errors.

Another option could be to have an option to either import or ignore the
reconciliation status on import if it exists in the import as a future
enhancement.

David Cousens



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Re: [GNC] Proposed change of "U+R" and "R" in the Import main matcher.

Adrien Monteleone-2
David & Geert,

Thanks for the explanation!

While I haven’t had the need (yet) to use the importer, I agree that U+M/M would be more clear.

Regards,
Adrien

> On Aug 7, 2019, at 7:01 AM, David Cousens <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Adrien,
>
> Even if it has been reconciled in another program I think you would want to
> check the reconciliation to make sure the importer had imported everything
> completely. The reconciliation process should be very quick if the import
> has been correct.
>
> I think as Geert mentoins in another post, GnuCash data can be exported with
> the reconcilation status and in that case one might want to import the
> reconcilation status. Eg if shifting historical records to another book to
> keep the file size small for those who do that. The purpose of the U+R and R
> in the import matcher itself is really to indicate the satus of the match
> and AFAIK it doesn't even use the reconciled status information in a
> transaction in the matching process, at least in the code I have looked
> through so far.
>
> It was why I initially proposed U+M and M as an alternative to make clear
> that it really is the status of the match and nothing to do with the actual
> reconciliataion status of the transaction. Even using "U+C" and "C" in the
> importer could in principle lead new users to confusing the status of the
> match with the reconciliation status. In the case where the status of an
> imported transaction was reconciled, it may make some sense to override the
> "c" setting on import. But since reconciliation is about checking the data
> in the book it is being imported to, I personally would prefer that it be
> imported as cleared and then set to reconciled in a proper reconciliation
> process not the  import process which might contain errors.
>
> Another option could be to have an option to either import or ignore the
> reconciliation status on import if it exists in the import as a future
> enhancement.
>
> David Cousens

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