[GNC] New Balsheet (and P&L report)

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[GNC] New Balsheet (and P&L report)

Christopher Lam
Seeking beta testers.

https://github.com/christopherlam/gnucash/tree/maint-balsheet-pnl

Or, anyone with v3.2 onwards can copy the file directly into the build's
standard-reports folder:
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/christopherlam/gnucash/maint-balsheet-pnl/gnucash/report/standard-reports/balsheet-pnl.scm

Adds new balsheet and income statement (i.e. Profit&Loss) report. I
still have further ideas in the pipeline, just wish to check accuracy of
amounts produced. Not all options have been implemented.

C
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Re: [GNC] New Balsheet (and P&L report)

Stephen M. Butler
Christopher,

I am attaching the three balance sheet reports available from within GNC
for both our test company and for my apartment building.  Of the three,
the accountant likes the layout and totals of the eguile version the best.

Her specific comments regarding the Multicolumn (pnl) are:

1.  Not unheard of to compare this year-to-date with last year-ti-date
on a balance sheet (and income/expense) report.  Less likely to be
beginning period/end period.  Most generally only done for last report
of the year (to compare back to prior year).  She prefers the single
point-in-time version for personal and small company finances.

2.  Placeholder accounts should not show $0.00.  Their true value is the
total for their level.

3.  The dates should not be repeated for each section of the report. 
Once at the top is enough.

4.  Equity is the same as Net Worth.  Its total should include:
    a.  Equity account totals
    b.  Trading account totals  (if there are no trading accounts,
suppress that portion)
    c.  Period to date Profit/Loss which should match the (Income -
Expense) from the Income Statement.

5.  Assets = Liabilities + Equity   and the total of Liabilities and
Equity should be shown and match the total of Assets.

6.  Put in the column underlines for the totals as is done on the eguile
version.  Then you can remove the "Total for XXX" labels as it will be
obvious it is a total.


Now, for our test company, I think we have a problem with the GPB
valuations.  We haven't done any bookkeeping with multiple currencies. 
So will need input from somebody else.

   

Stephen M Butler, PMP, PSM
[hidden email]
[hidden email]
253-350-0166
-------------------------------------------
GnuPG Fingerprint:  8A25 9726 D439 758D D846 E5D4 282A 5477 0385 81D8

On 06/25/2018 06:56 AM, Christopher Lam wrote:

> Seeking beta testers.
>
> https://github.com/christopherlam/gnucash/tree/maint-balsheet-pnl
>
> Or, anyone with v3.2 onwards can copy the file directly into the
> build's standard-reports folder:
> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/christopherlam/gnucash/maint-balsheet-pnl/gnucash/report/standard-reports/balsheet-pnl.scm
>
> Adds new balsheet and income statement (i.e. Profit&Loss) report. I
> still have further ideas in the pipeline, just wish to check accuracy
> of amounts produced. Not all options have been implemented.
>
> C
> _______________________________________________
> gnucash-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
> If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see
> https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information.
> -----
> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>

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Balance Sheet.html (1K) Download Attachment
Balance Sheet - eg.html (2K) Download Attachment
Balance Sheet-GVE.html (2K) Download Attachment
Balance Sheet-GVE-eg.html (8K) Download Attachment
Balance Sheet-GVE-pnl.html (4K) Download Attachment
Balance Sheet - pnl.html (2K) Download Attachment
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Re: [GNC] New Balsheet (and P&L report)

Christopher Lam
Hi Stephen

Thank you for valuable feedback... all these issues are cosmetic / account
selection, and are relatively trivial.... except that Placeholder accounts
can also contain transactions therefore must not necessarily accumulate
their children account amounts.

My major concern relates to switching amounts to a so-called "Report
Currency". But IMO this leads to balance sheets to being confused with
'stock valuation'

The existing balance sheet offers weighted-average, average-cost, nearest,
latest. AFAIU weighted-average and average-cost obtains prices from the
actual transactions; nearest means 'use price nearest to report-date', and
latest means 'use today's nearest price'

Let's say I bought:
100 AAPL at $10 in 2006, and
50 AAPL at $20 in 2009; and
AAPL was $110 in 2015
AAPL is about $180 in 2018

I'm wanting stock valuation in 2015.
- original currency - shows 150 AAPL, no price conversion (i.e. simplest)
- cost price - 100x$10 + 50x$20 = $2000 (labour intensive because each
stock transaction must be analysed, and converted using any available price
entry to the report currency)
- nearest - 150x$110 = $16,500 (simple)
- latest - 150x$180 = $27,000 (also simple)

Please check latest showing balsheet multicolumn amounts converted to
report currency; although they're esthetically nice, this has increased the
level of complexity a magnitude a tad too high... (I wouldn't know how/if
income/expense amounts can/must be subject to price conversion...)

I'd be keen to remove price conversion to report currency myself...


On 26 June 2018 at 03:34, Stephen M. Butler <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Christopher,
>
> I am attaching the three balance sheet reports available from within GNC
> for both our test company and for my apartment building.  Of the three,
> the accountant likes the layout and totals of the eguile version the best.
>
> Her specific comments regarding the Multicolumn (pnl) are:
>
> 1.  Not unheard of to compare this year-to-date with last year-ti-date
> on a balance sheet (and income/expense) report.  Less likely to be
> beginning period/end period.  Most generally only done for last report
> of the year (to compare back to prior year).  She prefers the single
> point-in-time version for personal and small company finances.
>
> 2.  Placeholder accounts should not show $0.00.  Their true value is the
> total for their level.
>
> 3.  The dates should not be repeated for each section of the report.
> Once at the top is enough.
>
> 4.  Equity is the same as Net Worth.  Its total should include:
>     a.  Equity account totals
>     b.  Trading account totals  (if there are no trading accounts,
> suppress that portion)
>     c.  Period to date Profit/Loss which should match the (Income -
> Expense) from the Income Statement.
>
> 5.  Assets = Liabilities + Equity   and the total of Liabilities and
> Equity should be shown and match the total of Assets.
>
> 6.  Put in the column underlines for the totals as is done on the eguile
> version.  Then you can remove the "Total for XXX" labels as it will be
> obvious it is a total.
>
>
> Now, for our test company, I think we have a problem with the GPB
> valuations.  We haven't done any bookkeeping with multiple currencies.
> So will need input from somebody else.
>
>
>
> Stephen M Butler, PMP, PSM
> [hidden email]
> [hidden email]
> 253-350-0166
> -------------------------------------------
> GnuPG Fingerprint:  8A25 9726 D439 758D D846 E5D4 282A 5477 0385 81D8
>
> On 06/25/2018 06:56 AM, Christopher Lam wrote:
> > Seeking beta testers.
> >
> > https://github.com/christopherlam/gnucash/tree/maint-balsheet-pnl
> >
> > Or, anyone with v3.2 onwards can copy the file directly into the
> > build's standard-reports folder:
> > https://raw.githubusercontent.com/christopherlam/gnucash/
> maint-balsheet-pnl/gnucash/report/standard-reports/balsheet-pnl.scm
> >
> > Adds new balsheet and income statement (i.e. Profit&Loss) report. I
> > still have further ideas in the pipeline, just wish to check accuracy
> > of amounts produced. Not all options have been implemented.
> >
> > C
> > _______________________________________________
> > gnucash-user mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
> > If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see
> > https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information.
> > -----
> > Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
> > You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
> >
>
>
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[GNC] Valuation of stocks, foreign currencies in reports (was: Re: New Balsheet (and P&L report))

Geert Janssens-4
Op dinsdag 26 juni 2018 06:03:07 CEST schreef Christopher Lam:

> Hi Stephen
>
> Thank you for valuable feedback... all these issues are cosmetic / account
> selection, and are relatively trivial.... except that Placeholder accounts
> can also contain transactions therefore must not necessarily accumulate
> their children account amounts.
>
> My major concern relates to switching amounts to a so-called "Report
> Currency". But IMO this leads to balance sheets to being confused with
> 'stock valuation'
>
> The existing balance sheet offers weighted-average, average-cost, nearest,
> latest. AFAIU weighted-average and average-cost obtains prices from the
> actual transactions; nearest means 'use price nearest to report-date', and
> latest means 'use today's nearest price'
>
> Let's say I bought:
> 100 AAPL at $10 in 2006, and
> 50 AAPL at $20 in 2009; and
> AAPL was $110 in 2015
> AAPL is about $180 in 2018
>
> I'm wanting stock valuation in 2015.
> - original currency - shows 150 AAPL, no price conversion (i.e. simplest)
> - cost price - 100x$10 + 50x$20 = $2000 (labour intensive because each
> stock transaction must be analysed, and converted using any available price
> entry to the report currency)
> - nearest - 150x$110 = $16,500 (simple)
> - latest - 150x$180 = $27,000 (also simple)
>
> Please check latest showing balsheet multicolumn amounts converted to
> report currency; although they're esthetically nice, this has increased the
> level of complexity a magnitude a tad too high... (I wouldn't know how/if
> income/expense amounts can/must be subject to price conversion...)
>
> I'd be keen to remove price conversion to report currency myself...

Unfortunately you can't.

A balance sheet is used to get a quick overview of the financial situation of
a company. I would want to see this expressed in one currency and I find that
other accounting software around me here does that as  well. This is important
to be able to compare the value of the company at different key moments
(fiscal year ends, when a new loan has to be acquired from a bank,...).

So inevitably this will pull in all the complexity of trading and valuation.
And it gets even worse if your report splits out in different time periods.

I don't have much experience in this area unfortunately as I don't manage
stocks or foreign currencies myself in GnuCash.

I can peek how my accountant handles this for our company though.

Currently for our company stock is valued at cost price. However our
accountant says this is a choice. One could just as well decide (at least here
in Belgium) to value stock at report date. It's not up to the application you
use to decide which one. Instead that's an accounting decision (fiscal
optimization). So ideally gnucash supports those two at least.

Note that in case you generate a balance sheet with multiple dates "report
date" really means the closing date for each column. So different prices can
be in use for each column. Or put differently in a multi column balance sheet
you are really computing several independent balance sheets at different
points in time. I haven't deciphered your code yet, so I don't know if that is
how you wrote it.

This is important because when comparing present day's balance sheet with the
closing balance sheet of the last fiscal period I don't want the closing
balance sheet to change based on what happens to be the current price of a
share. Or at least not in all circumstances. I want to be able to compare my
company's current situation with what I reported to my tax authorities for
example.

Also although you mark the cost price example above as "labour intensive" you
have chosen the most simple version of it, namely the situation in which
shares have only been bought but not yet sold.
Suppose you sell 20 AAPL shares at a $25 price in 2010, then what is the cost
price of the 130 shares you have left ? Do you now have
80 shares at $10 + 50 shares at $20 (FIFO principle)
or
100 shares at $10 + 30 shares at $20 (LIFO principle)
or
90 x $10 + 40 x $20 or yet another way ?
I don't know at all what would be correct or legally allowed in different
parts of the world. The first two options seem reasonable.

I think John has looked at this several times in the context of the Advanced
Portfolio report so he may have more insights.

However it looks like we have hit a topic that may benefit from a centralized
set of functions that deal with valuation and that can be reused throughout
the rest of the code.

Geert


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Re: [GNC] Valuation of stocks, foreign currencies in reports

Christopher Lam
Hi Geert,

Thank you.

The latest iteration does provide 'report-currency' for both balsheet
(price from the exact column date) and profit&loss (price from
begin/mid/end of column date period) and some cosmetic changes as advised.

No cost-price valuations are implemented. Perhaps this can be parked for
now; and merged when it is confirmed accurate enough.

C


On 26/06/18 17:11, Geert Janssens wrote:

> Op dinsdag 26 juni 2018 06:03:07 CEST schreef Christopher Lam:
>> Hi Stephen
>>
>> Thank you for valuable feedback... all these issues are cosmetic / account
>> selection, and are relatively trivial.... except that Placeholder accounts
>> can also contain transactions therefore must not necessarily accumulate
>> their children account amounts.
>>
>> My major concern relates to switching amounts to a so-called "Report
>> Currency". But IMO this leads to balance sheets to being confused with
>> 'stock valuation'
>>
>> The existing balance sheet offers weighted-average, average-cost, nearest,
>> latest. AFAIU weighted-average and average-cost obtains prices from the
>> actual transactions; nearest means 'use price nearest to report-date', and
>> latest means 'use today's nearest price'
>>
>> Let's say I bought:
>> 100 AAPL at $10 in 2006, and
>> 50 AAPL at $20 in 2009; and
>> AAPL was $110 in 2015
>> AAPL is about $180 in 2018
>>
>> I'm wanting stock valuation in 2015.
>> - original currency - shows 150 AAPL, no price conversion (i.e. simplest)
>> - cost price - 100x$10 + 50x$20 = $2000 (labour intensive because each
>> stock transaction must be analysed, and converted using any available price
>> entry to the report currency)
>> - nearest - 150x$110 = $16,500 (simple)
>> - latest - 150x$180 = $27,000 (also simple)
>>
>> Please check latest showing balsheet multicolumn amounts converted to
>> report currency; although they're esthetically nice, this has increased the
>> level of complexity a magnitude a tad too high... (I wouldn't know how/if
>> income/expense amounts can/must be subject to price conversion...)
>>
>> I'd be keen to remove price conversion to report currency myself...
> Unfortunately you can't.
>
> A balance sheet is used to get a quick overview of the financial situation of
> a company. I would want to see this expressed in one currency and I find that
> other accounting software around me here does that as  well. This is important
> to be able to compare the value of the company at different key moments
> (fiscal year ends, when a new loan has to be acquired from a bank,...).
>
> So inevitably this will pull in all the complexity of trading and valuation.
> And it gets even worse if your report splits out in different time periods.
>
> I don't have much experience in this area unfortunately as I don't manage
> stocks or foreign currencies myself in GnuCash.
>
> I can peek how my accountant handles this for our company though.
>
> Currently for our company stock is valued at cost price. However our
> accountant says this is a choice. One could just as well decide (at least here
> in Belgium) to value stock at report date. It's not up to the application you
> use to decide which one. Instead that's an accounting decision (fiscal
> optimization). So ideally gnucash supports those two at least.
>
> Note that in case you generate a balance sheet with multiple dates "report
> date" really means the closing date for each column. So different prices can
> be in use for each column. Or put differently in a multi column balance sheet
> you are really computing several independent balance sheets at different
> points in time. I haven't deciphered your code yet, so I don't know if that is
> how you wrote it.
>
> This is important because when comparing present day's balance sheet with the
> closing balance sheet of the last fiscal period I don't want the closing
> balance sheet to change based on what happens to be the current price of a
> share. Or at least not in all circumstances. I want to be able to compare my
> company's current situation with what I reported to my tax authorities for
> example.
>
> Also although you mark the cost price example above as "labour intensive" you
> have chosen the most simple version of it, namely the situation in which
> shares have only been bought but not yet sold.
> Suppose you sell 20 AAPL shares at a $25 price in 2010, then what is the cost
> price of the 130 shares you have left ? Do you now have
> 80 shares at $10 + 50 shares at $20 (FIFO principle)
> or
> 100 shares at $10 + 30 shares at $20 (LIFO principle)
> or
> 90 x $10 + 40 x $20 or yet another way ?
> I don't know at all what would be correct or legally allowed in different
> parts of the world. The first two options seem reasonable.
>
> I think John has looked at this several times in the context of the Advanced
> Portfolio report so he may have more insights.
>
> However it looks like we have hit a topic that may benefit from a centralized
> set of functions that deal with valuation and that can be reused throughout
> the rest of the code.
>
> Geert
>
>

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Re: [GNC] New Balsheet (and P&L report)

Stephen M. Butler
In reply to this post by Christopher Lam
Have you read https://www.mscs.dal.ca/~selinger/accounting/tutorial.html
and the companion https://www.mscs.dal.ca/~selinger/accounting/gnucash.html?

I finished both last night and am working through chapter 12 of the
current guide.  I think it is an accounting setup issue more than a
reporting issue.  And our sample company is setup wrong based on what I
read.



On 06/25/2018 09:03 PM, Christopher Lam wrote:

> Hi Stephen
>
> Thank you for valuable feedback... all these issues are cosmetic /
> account selection, and are relatively trivial.... except that
> Placeholder accounts can also contain transactions therefore must not
> necessarily accumulate their children account amounts.
>
> My major concern relates to switching amounts to a so-called "Report
> Currency". But IMO this leads to balance sheets to being confused with
> 'stock valuation'
>
> The existing balance sheet offers weighted-average, average-cost,
> nearest, latest. AFAIU weighted-average and average-cost obtains
> prices from the actual transactions; nearest means 'use price nearest
> to report-date', and latest means 'use today's nearest price'
>
> Let's say I bought:
> 100 AAPL at $10 in 2006, and
> 50 AAPL at $20 in 2009; and
> AAPL was $110 in 2015
> AAPL is about $180 in 2018
>
> I'm wanting stock valuation in 2015.
> - original currency - shows 150 AAPL, no price conversion (i.e. simplest)
> - cost price - 100x$10 + 50x$20 = $2000 (labour intensive because each
> stock transaction must be analysed, and converted using any available
> price entry to the report currency)
> - nearest - 150x$110 = $16,500 (simple)
> - latest - 150x$180 = $27,000 (also simple)
>
> Please check latest showing balsheet multicolumn amounts converted to
> report currency; although they're esthetically nice, this has
> increased the level of complexity a magnitude a tad too high... (I
> wouldn't know how/if income/expense amounts can/must be subject to
> price conversion...)
>
> I'd be keen to remove price conversion to report currency myself...
>
>
> On 26 June 2018 at 03:34, Stephen M. Butler <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     Christopher,
>
>     I am attaching the three balance sheet reports available from
>     within GNC
>     for both our test company and for my apartment building.  Of the
>     three,
>     the accountant likes the layout and totals of the eguile version
>     the best.
>
>     Her specific comments regarding the Multicolumn (pnl) are:
>
>     1.  Not unheard of to compare this year-to-date with last year-ti-date
>     on a balance sheet (and income/expense) report.  Less likely to be
>     beginning period/end period.  Most generally only done for last report
>     of the year (to compare back to prior year).  She prefers the single
>     point-in-time version for personal and small company finances.
>
>     2.  Placeholder accounts should not show $0.00.  Their true value
>     is the
>     total for their level.
>
>     3.  The dates should not be repeated for each section of the report. 
>     Once at the top is enough.
>
>     4.  Equity is the same as Net Worth.  Its total should include:
>         a.  Equity account totals
>         b.  Trading account totals  (if there are no trading accounts,
>     suppress that portion)
>         c.  Period to date Profit/Loss which should match the (Income -
>     Expense) from the Income Statement.
>
>     5.  Assets = Liabilities + Equity   and the total of Liabilities and
>     Equity should be shown and match the total of Assets.
>
>     6.  Put in the column underlines for the totals as is done on the
>     eguile
>     version.  Then you can remove the "Total for XXX" labels as it will be
>     obvious it is a total.
>
>
>     Now, for our test company, I think we have a problem with the GPB
>     valuations.  We haven't done any bookkeeping with multiple
>     currencies. 
>     So will need input from somebody else.
>
>        
>
>     Stephen M Butler, PMP, PSM
>     [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     253-350-0166
>     -------------------------------------------
>     GnuPG Fingerprint:  8A25 9726 D439 758D D846 E5D4 282A 5477 0385 81D8
>
>     On 06/25/2018 06:56 AM, Christopher Lam wrote:
>     > Seeking beta testers.
>     >
>     >
>     https://github.com/christopherlam/gnucash/tree/maint-balsheet-pnl
>     <https://github.com/christopherlam/gnucash/tree/maint-balsheet-pnl>
>     >
>     > Or, anyone with v3.2 onwards can copy the file directly into the
>     > build's standard-reports folder:
>     >
>     https://raw.githubusercontent.com/christopherlam/gnucash/maint-balsheet-pnl/gnucash/report/standard-reports/balsheet-pnl.scm
>     <https://raw.githubusercontent.com/christopherlam/gnucash/maint-balsheet-pnl/gnucash/report/standard-reports/balsheet-pnl.scm>
>     >
>     > Adds new balsheet and income statement (i.e. Profit&Loss) report. I
>     > still have further ideas in the pipeline, just wish to check
>     accuracy
>     > of amounts produced. Not all options have been implemented.
>     >
>     > C
>     > _______________________________________________
>     > gnucash-user mailing list
>     > [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     > To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
>     > https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
>     <https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user>
>     > If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see
>     > https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists
>     <https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists> for more information.
>     > -----
>     > Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
>     > You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>     >
>
>

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Re: [GNC] New Balsheet (and P&L report)

David Cousens
In reply to this post by Christopher Lam
Christopher,

" except that Placeholder accounts
can also contain transactions therefore must not necessarily accumulate
their children account amounts. "

I have to disagree with the above from an accounting perspective.

If accounts are setup as Placeholders initially (i.e. the checkbox set in
New Account dialog when they are created) they are readonly hence you cannot
select them as targets for transactions (Placeholders do not appear in the
list of target accounts for a transaction and if you open the account
register you are warned that it is read only and you cannot enter
transactions from it so they cannot accumulate any balance when they are
initially set as Placeholder accounts.

If you change an existing account to be a Placeholder and it already has
transactions into it then its balance will contain the sum of those
transactions. If you then createa sub account of it and create transactions
into the sub-account, then the balance of the parent placeholder account
balance is correctly the sum of the balances of any sub accounts plus the
sum of any transactions into it before it was changed to a placeholder.

If it was initially a placeholder, a user could subsequently change it to be
a non-placeholder account  allowing it to accumulate transactions into it
and subsequently change it back.

In either of these two cases, the correct balance for the placeholder
account is always the balance of any transactions into the placeholder
account itself plus the sum of balances of it's sub-accounts. In most
accounting practice the balances of the subaccounts would be indented to the
right.

To maintain consistency with this practice, if it is possible you could
present the balance of any direct transactions to the placeholder account
indented in the same manner as the sub-accounts as if it was a sub-account
and then have the non-indented balance for the placeholder account being the
sum of that plus the balances of any subaccounts.

Where you are trying to create a multicolumn/multiperiod type report, which
I have gathered is your objective, having to have indented sub-accounts will
make it very complex and difficult to fit on a fixed page size if you have
to preserve indenting of the sub-account structure.

I would like to plead that the current Balance and Income Statements and
other standard accounting reports not be replaced by a multiperiod report,
but that this become an additional optional report.

Gnucash is used in many different jurisdictions not all of which have as yet
adopted the IFRS produced by the IASB. (The US while moving towards the IFRS
uses a GAAP which is not yet compliant). Even if this were the case, many
jurisdictions still have local divergences from strict IFRS adherence
because of the need to be consistent with other laws in their jurisdiction.
Having fairly plain vanilla single period reports which users can then
produce customised versions  for their specific requirements is fairly
essential to meet the need to operate across many jurisdictions, which is
one of GnuCash's strengths. That may be more difficult to do with a
multiperiod report.

A cautious user would hopefully not create the situation where placeholder
accounts have transactions into them, but Murphy's law applies and if it can
happen it no doubt will and does.

The case where after a given date company or reporting policy requires a
more detailed breakdown with sub-accounts but prior to that date there was
only a single account is one situation where transactions to a parent
account might occur. I personally would treat that by creating a sub-account
for all transactions into the original account prior to that date to which
all existing transactions could be transferred along with the sub-accounts
for the future reporting structure for future transactions. At some point in
the future that sub-account with the original parent account transactions
could possibly be hidden, but the data is still preserved.

It would be ideal perhaps if Gnucash on creation of a subaccount required
the parent account to be made a placeholder and any existing transactions
transferred to either that subaccount (or another appropriate account) but
that is not built in currently. There may be other use cases where this is
not desirable however.

regards

David Cousens




-----
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Re: [GNC] New Balsheet (and P&L report)

Christopher Lam
Hi Dave

On 28/06/18 17:24, DaveC49 wrote:
> Christopher,
>
> " except that Placeholder accounts
> can also contain transactions therefore must not necessarily accumulate
> their children account amounts. "
>
> I have to disagree with the above from an accounting perspective.

I was not describing UI restrictions; I was describing Report format.
How to report 'accounts' with children, but with their own amounts?

---Answer 1---

I had a multilevel strategy which (to me) was more clever, but it would
seem is not desired.
1. If account has children, just render its own amount (e.g.
Expenses:Utilities:Home = $10)
2. Move on to its child accounts (e.g. Expenses:Utilities:Home:Electric
= $35, Expenses:Utilities:Beachhouse:Electric = $40)
3. If we are moving to a *higher* level account, then start rendering
all intermediate sublevels will be subtotals, e.g.

   Expenses = $0
   Expenses:Utilities = $0
   Expenses:Utilities:Home = $10         <- note this is a parent
account with own $10 amount, gets its own row
   Expenses:Utilities:Home:Water = $40
   Expenses:Utilities:Home:Electric = $35
   TOTAL Expenses:Utilities:Home = $85

   Expenses:Utilities:Beachhouse
   Expenses:Utilities:Beachhouse:Electric = $40
   Expenses:Utilities:Beachhouse:Water = $20
   TOTAL Expenses:Utilities:Beachhouse = $60

   TOTAL Expenses:Utilities = $145

However this approach seems to be adding too much complexity so I've
removed it.

---Answer 2---

In my current draft balsheet-pnl I am specifically *not* querying the
account's placeholder flag. As we know it is being used both as a
'grouping' account (e.g. Asset:Fixed) and as a 'disabled' account flag
(e.g. Asset:Closed:MyOldBank:Current).

So the above P&L will be rendered as follows:

   Total Expenses:Utilities = $145

   Total Expenses:Utilities:Home = $85
   Expenses:Utilities:Home = $10            <-- 'parent' account with
own $10 amount
   Expenses:Utilities:Home:Water = $40
   Expenses:Utilities:Home:Electric = $35

   Total Expenses:Utilities:Beachhouse = $60            <- parent
account without amount... it doesn't get its own row
   Expenses:Utilities:Beachhouse:Electric = $40
   Expenses:Utilities:Beachhouse:Water = $20

This is the 'recursive-balance' strategy. In this one, the Totals will
always be presented in the parent account.

---

Both methods are suitable for the current placeholder strategy.


> If accounts are setup as Placeholders initially (i.e. the checkbox set in
> New Account dialog when they are created) they are readonly hence you cannot
> select them as targets for transactions (Placeholders do not appear in the
> list of target accounts for a transaction and if you open the account
> register you are warned that it is read only and you cannot enter
> transactions from it so they cannot accumulate any balance when they are
> initially set as Placeholder accounts.
>
> If you change an existing account to be a Placeholder and it already has
> transactions into it then its balance will contain the sum of those
> transactions. If you then createa sub account of it and create transactions
> into the sub-account, then the balance of the parent placeholder account
> balance is correctly the sum of the balances of any sub accounts plus the
> sum of any transactions into it before it was changed to a placeholder.
>
> If it was initially a placeholder, a user could subsequently change it to be
> a non-placeholder account  allowing it to accumulate transactions into it
> and subsequently change it back.
>
> In either of these two cases, the correct balance for the placeholder
> account is always the balance of any transactions into the placeholder
> account itself plus the sum of balances of it's sub-accounts. In most
> accounting practice the balances of the subaccounts would be indented to the
> right.
>
> To maintain consistency with this practice, if it is possible you could
> present the balance of any direct transactions to the placeholder account
> indented in the same manner as the sub-accounts as if it was a sub-account
> and then have the non-indented balance for the placeholder account being the
> sum of that plus the balances of any subaccounts.
>
> Where you are trying to create a multicolumn/multiperiod type report, which
> I have gathered is your objective, having to have indented sub-accounts will
> make it very complex and difficult to fit on a fixed page size if you have
> to preserve indenting of the sub-account structure.
>
> I would like to plead that the current Balance and Income Statements and
> other standard accounting reports not be replaced by a multiperiod report,
> but that this become an additional optional report.

The multicolumns are only enabled if the period option allows it. It can
easily be disabled, or made off by default.

The current balance sheet has the amounts indented in a completely
unpredictable method. I cannot fix it, sorry...

Please beta test the report as it stands, or comment on the screenshots,
especially https://screenshots.firefox.com/3AGgKiSkmdebjOsf/null ...
your input is valuable. I have considered all above possibilities in
designing it, and when I came up with the 2 options it seemed to fit the
type of information obtainable from the Gnucash data format.

> Gnucash is used in many different jurisdictions not all of which have as yet
> adopted the IFRS produced by the IASB. (The US while moving towards the IFRS
> uses a GAAP which is not yet compliant). Even if this were the case, many
> jurisdictions still have local divergences from strict IFRS adherence
> because of the need to be consistent with other laws in their jurisdiction.
> Having fairly plain vanilla single period reports which users can then
> produce customised versions  for their specific requirements is fairly
> essential to meet the need to operate across many jurisdictions, which is
> one of GnuCash's strengths. That may be more difficult to do with a
> multiperiod report.
>
> A cautious user would hopefully not create the situation where placeholder
> accounts have transactions into them, but Murphy's law applies and if it can
> happen it no doubt will and does.
>
> The case where after a given date company or reporting policy requires a
> more detailed breakdown with sub-accounts but prior to that date there was
> only a single account is one situation where transactions to a parent
> account might occur. I personally would treat that by creating a sub-account
> for all transactions into the original account prior to that date to which
> all existing transactions could be transferred along with the sub-accounts
> for the future reporting structure for future transactions. At some point in
> the future that sub-account with the original parent account transactions
> could possibly be hidden, but the data is still preserved.
>
> It would be ideal perhaps if Gnucash on creation of a subaccount required
> the parent account to be made a placeholder and any existing transactions
> transferred to either that subaccount (or another appropriate account) but
> that is not built in currently. There may be other use cases where this is
> not desirable however.
>
> regards
>
> David Cousens
>
>
>
>
> -----
> David Cousens
> --
> Sent from: http://gnucash.1415818.n4.nabble.com/GnuCash-User-f1415819.html
> _______________________________________________
> gnucash-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
> If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information.
> -----
> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.

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Re: [GNC] New Balsheet (and P&L report)

Christopher Lam
Latest iteration of balsheet-pnl
https://screenshots.firefox.com/SzeQeQcyTTTGtb1a/null

Rules:
1. All totals will now be shown by the parent account - i.e. the first row
"Asset" has all asset amounts combined.
2. Every account-with-children will be bold and annotated "Total for ..."
to indicate this is an aggregate amount. See "Total Broker 200FUND + $2000"
3. Every account-with-children-with-own-amounts will have that amount shown
underneath the above aggregate. See "Broker $2000"
4. Account without children will be shown similar as 3. See "Broker:Stock
200FUND"

I dare say this strategy is much clearer than the existing balance sheet
reports.
C

On 30 June 2018 at 17:03, Christopher Lam <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Dave
>
> On 28/06/18 17:24, DaveC49 wrote:
>
>> Christopher,
>>
>> " except that Placeholder accounts
>> can also contain transactions therefore must not necessarily accumulate
>> their children account amounts. "
>>
>> I have to disagree with the above from an accounting perspective.
>>
>
> I was not describing UI restrictions; I was describing Report format. How
> to report 'accounts' with children, but with their own amounts?
>
> ---Answer 1---
>
> I had a multilevel strategy which (to me) was more clever, but it would
> seem is not desired.
> 1. If account has children, just render its own amount (e.g.
> Expenses:Utilities:Home = $10)
> 2. Move on to its child accounts (e.g. Expenses:Utilities:Home:Electric =
> $35, Expenses:Utilities:Beachhouse:Electric = $40)
> 3. If we are moving to a *higher* level account, then start rendering all
> intermediate sublevels will be subtotals, e.g.
>
>   Expenses = $0
>   Expenses:Utilities = $0
>   Expenses:Utilities:Home = $10         <- note this is a parent account
> with own $10 amount, gets its own row
>   Expenses:Utilities:Home:Water = $40
>   Expenses:Utilities:Home:Electric = $35
>   TOTAL Expenses:Utilities:Home = $85
>
>   Expenses:Utilities:Beachhouse
>   Expenses:Utilities:Beachhouse:Electric = $40
>   Expenses:Utilities:Beachhouse:Water = $20
>   TOTAL Expenses:Utilities:Beachhouse = $60
>
>   TOTAL Expenses:Utilities = $145
>
> However this approach seems to be adding too much complexity so I've
> removed it.
>
> ---Answer 2---
>
> In my current draft balsheet-pnl I am specifically *not* querying the
> account's placeholder flag. As we know it is being used both as a
> 'grouping' account (e.g. Asset:Fixed) and as a 'disabled' account flag
> (e.g. Asset:Closed:MyOldBank:Current).
>
> So the above P&L will be rendered as follows:
>
>   Total Expenses:Utilities = $145
>
>   Total Expenses:Utilities:Home = $85
>   Expenses:Utilities:Home = $10            <-- 'parent' account with own
> $10 amount
>   Expenses:Utilities:Home:Water = $40
>   Expenses:Utilities:Home:Electric = $35
>
>   Total Expenses:Utilities:Beachhouse = $60            <- parent account
> without amount... it doesn't get its own row
>   Expenses:Utilities:Beachhouse:Electric = $40
>   Expenses:Utilities:Beachhouse:Water = $20
>
> This is the 'recursive-balance' strategy. In this one, the Totals will
> always be presented in the parent account.
>
> ---
>
> Both methods are suitable for the current placeholder strategy.
>
>
>
> If accounts are setup as Placeholders initially (i.e. the checkbox set in
>> New Account dialog when they are created) they are readonly hence you
>> cannot
>> select them as targets for transactions (Placeholders do not appear in the
>> list of target accounts for a transaction and if you open the account
>> register you are warned that it is read only and you cannot enter
>> transactions from it so they cannot accumulate any balance when they are
>> initially set as Placeholder accounts.
>>
>> If you change an existing account to be a Placeholder and it already has
>> transactions into it then its balance will contain the sum of those
>> transactions. If you then createa sub account of it and create
>> transactions
>> into the sub-account, then the balance of the parent placeholder account
>> balance is correctly the sum of the balances of any sub accounts plus the
>> sum of any transactions into it before it was changed to a placeholder.
>>
>> If it was initially a placeholder, a user could subsequently change it to
>> be
>> a non-placeholder account  allowing it to accumulate transactions into it
>> and subsequently change it back.
>>
>> In either of these two cases, the correct balance for the placeholder
>> account is always the balance of any transactions into the placeholder
>> account itself plus the sum of balances of it's sub-accounts. In most
>> accounting practice the balances of the subaccounts would be indented to
>> the
>> right.
>>
>> To maintain consistency with this practice, if it is possible you could
>> present the balance of any direct transactions to the placeholder account
>> indented in the same manner as the sub-accounts as if it was a sub-account
>> and then have the non-indented balance for the placeholder account being
>> the
>> sum of that plus the balances of any subaccounts.
>>
>> Where you are trying to create a multicolumn/multiperiod type report,
>> which
>> I have gathered is your objective, having to have indented sub-accounts
>> will
>> make it very complex and difficult to fit on a fixed page size if you have
>> to preserve indenting of the sub-account structure.
>>
>> I would like to plead that the current Balance and Income Statements and
>> other standard accounting reports not be replaced by a multiperiod report,
>> but that this become an additional optional report.
>>
>
> The multicolumns are only enabled if the period option allows it. It can
> easily be disabled, or made off by default.
>
> The current balance sheet has the amounts indented in a completely
> unpredictable method. I cannot fix it, sorry...
>
> Please beta test the report as it stands, or comment on the screenshots,
> especially https://screenshots.firefox.com/3AGgKiSkmdebjOsf/null ... your
> input is valuable. I have considered all above possibilities in designing
> it, and when I came up with the 2 options it seemed to fit the type of
> information obtainable from the Gnucash data format.
>
> Gnucash is used in many different jurisdictions not all of which have as
>> yet
>> adopted the IFRS produced by the IASB. (The US while moving towards the
>> IFRS
>> uses a GAAP which is not yet compliant). Even if this were the case, many
>> jurisdictions still have local divergences from strict IFRS adherence
>> because of the need to be consistent with other laws in their
>> jurisdiction.
>> Having fairly plain vanilla single period reports which users can then
>> produce customised versions  for their specific requirements is fairly
>> essential to meet the need to operate across many jurisdictions, which is
>> one of GnuCash's strengths. That may be more difficult to do with a
>> multiperiod report.
>>
>> A cautious user would hopefully not create the situation where placeholder
>> accounts have transactions into them, but Murphy's law applies and if it
>> can
>> happen it no doubt will and does.
>>
>> The case where after a given date company or reporting policy requires a
>> more detailed breakdown with sub-accounts but prior to that date there was
>> only a single account is one situation where transactions to a parent
>> account might occur. I personally would treat that by creating a
>> sub-account
>> for all transactions into the original account prior to that date to which
>> all existing transactions could be transferred along with the sub-accounts
>> for the future reporting structure for future transactions. At some point
>> in
>> the future that sub-account with the original parent account transactions
>> could possibly be hidden, but the data is still preserved.
>>
>> It would be ideal perhaps if Gnucash on creation of a subaccount required
>> the parent account to be made a placeholder and any existing transactions
>> transferred to either that subaccount (or another appropriate account) but
>> that is not built in currently. There may be other use cases where this is
>> not desirable however.
>>
>> regards
>>
>> David Cousens
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----
>> David Cousens
>> --
>> Sent from: http://gnucash.1415818.n4.nabble.com/GnuCash-User-f1415819.h
>> tml
>> _______________________________________________
>> gnucash-user mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
>> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
>> If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see
>> https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information.
>> -----
>> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
>> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>>
>
>
_______________________________________________
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If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information.
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