[GNC] How-to question: CD Interest payments deposited in a different account

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[GNC] How-to question: CD Interest payments deposited in a different account

Art Chimes
I have been trying to learn GnuCash for several months now, and I am
apparently dumber than I thought. I am pretty good at keeping my checking
account, but I find more complex actions more challenging.

For example, I bought a CD (cert. of deposit) last year, and it resides in
my brokerage account. Each month it pays me a small amount of interest,
which is automatically deposited in my checking account. When the CD
matures I will get my original money back.

As I learn GnuCash I am still using Quicken (Q 2000!) and in that program
it is a simple matter there to record the interest+transfer event as an
IntIncX (interest income transfer) transaction. But I am stymied in an
effort to correctly record this kind of transaction in GnuCash.

I have searched GnuCash resources extensively but I keep getting sent back
to an unhelpful example in which the earnings accrue to the CD, to be paid
out at the end of the term. (e.g.
https://www.gnucash.org/docs/v3/C/gnucash-guide/invest_int1.html)

Do I create a split transaction that shows the interest income increasing
the value of the CD's asset account and simultaneously being transferred to
the checking account? I tried this without success, but I am still pretty
rocky with splits.

I imagine the procedure is analogous to handling period bond interest
payments, or mutual fund dividends, etc., but again I am apparently not
smart enough to find resources that I can use. (It seems the documentation
— like in Quicken — is not very robust for fixed-income investments.

I really want to move away from Quicken, but right now I am maintaining
parallel sets of books as I try to get comfortable with GnuCash. Thank you
for any help you can provide.

Art

PS - I'm a noobie ... please be gentle!
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Re: [GNC] How-to question: CD Interest payments deposited in a different account

Adrien Monteleone-2
Art,

Welcome to GnuCash!

Someone more familiar with your exact scenario can help you better, but do you need to record the interest in the CD account at all?

Unless there is a time delay between when it is earned and deposited I’d just record the transaction between an income account and the checking account. If there is a time delay, you could hold it temporarily in the CD, but you could also use some other holding account like an undeposited funds asset account which can also be used for checks received but not yet cashed or deposited.

Regards,
Adrien

> On Feb 18, 2019, at 9:04 PM, Art Chimes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I have been trying to learn GnuCash for several months now, and I am
> apparently dumber than I thought. I am pretty good at keeping my checking
> account, but I find more complex actions more challenging.
>
> For example, I bought a CD (cert. of deposit) last year, and it resides in
> my brokerage account. Each month it pays me a small amount of interest,
> which is automatically deposited in my checking account. When the CD
> matures I will get my original money back.
>
> As I learn GnuCash I am still using Quicken (Q 2000!) and in that program
> it is a simple matter there to record the interest+transfer event as an
> IntIncX (interest income transfer) transaction. But I am stymied in an
> effort to correctly record this kind of transaction in GnuCash.
>
> I have searched GnuCash resources extensively but I keep getting sent back
> to an unhelpful example in which the earnings accrue to the CD, to be paid
> out at the end of the term. (e.g.
> https://www.gnucash.org/docs/v3/C/gnucash-guide/invest_int1.html)
>
> Do I create a split transaction that shows the interest income increasing
> the value of the CD's asset account and simultaneously being transferred to
> the checking account? I tried this without success, but I am still pretty
> rocky with splits.
>
> I imagine the procedure is analogous to handling period bond interest
> payments, or mutual fund dividends, etc., but again I am apparently not
> smart enough to find resources that I can use. (It seems the documentation
> — like in Quicken — is not very robust for fixed-income investments.
>
> I really want to move away from Quicken, but right now I am maintaining
> parallel sets of books as I try to get comfortable with GnuCash. Thank you
> for any help you can provide.
>
> Art
>
> PS - I'm a noobie ... please be gentle!
> _______________________________________________


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Re: [GNC] How-to question: CD Interest payments deposited in a different account

David Cousens
In reply to this post by Art Chimes
Art,

The transaction is pretty simple

                                              Debit          Credit
Asset :Bank:Checking               xxxx
Income:InterestCD                                    xxxx

Where under the Income top level account the account to record the interest
should be located will depend on your circumstances. Generally interest
income is likely to be taxable but you would only have to differentiate if
you also had sources of non-taxable income. You could also either lump all
your interest income into one account or use sub-accounts to record interest
from different sources. It depends on the level of detail you require.

If the interest amount is the same each time, i.e. only depends on the
principal, you could also set it up as a scheduled transaction ending when
the CD matures.

David Cousens



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Re: [GNC] How-to question: CD Interest payments deposited in a different account

Dale Alspach-2
In reply to this post by Art Chimes
Perhaps you are over-thinking this. I would create an income account with a
name such as "CD interest". Each month create a transaction

Credit CD interest $x
Debit Checking $x

where $x is the amount of interest paid for the month.

Dale

On Mon, Feb 18, 2019, 11:06 PM Art Chimes <[hidden email] wrote:

> I have been trying to learn GnuCash for several months now, and I am
> apparently dumber than I thought. I am pretty good at keeping my checking
> account, but I find more complex actions more challenging.
>
> For example, I bought a CD (cert. of deposit) last year, and it resides in
> my brokerage account. Each month it pays me a small amount of interest,
> which is automatically deposited in my checking account. When the CD
> matures I will get my original money back.
>
> As I learn GnuCash I am still using Quicken (Q 2000!) and in that program
> it is a simple matter there to record the interest+transfer event as an
> IntIncX (interest income transfer) transaction. But I am stymied in an
> effort to correctly record this kind of transaction in GnuCash.
>
> I have searched GnuCash resources extensively but I keep getting sent back
> to an unhelpful example in which the earnings accrue to the CD, to be paid
> out at the end of the term. (e.g.
> https://www.gnucash.org/docs/v3/C/gnucash-guide/invest_int1.html)
>
> Do I create a split transaction that shows the interest income increasing
> the value of the CD's asset account and simultaneously being transferred to
> the checking account? I tried this without success, but I am still pretty
> rocky with splits.
>
> I imagine the procedure is analogous to handling period bond interest
> payments, or mutual fund dividends, etc., but again I am apparently not
> smart enough to find resources that I can use. (It seems the documentation
> — like in Quicken — is not very robust for fixed-income investments.
>
> I really want to move away from Quicken, but right now I am maintaining
> parallel sets of books as I try to get comfortable with GnuCash. Thank you
> for any help you can provide.
>
> Art
>
> PS - I'm a noobie ... please be gentle!
> _______________________________________________
> gnucash-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
> If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see
> https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information.
> -----
> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
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Re: [GNC] How-to question: CD Interest payments deposited in

GnuCash - User mailing list
In reply to this post by Adrien Monteleone-2

Adrien (and Dale and David),
Each of you correctly suggests a transaction from an income account to the checking account.  
However, I suspect that underlying Art's question is the idea that this transaction will not have any connection to the original CD account. When he calls up the CD register, none of the interest information will show. 
I see a similar circumstance with stock dividends; the dividends are paid into a brokerage cash account from an income account, but there's nothing in the stock register to show the dividends.  
I've often wondered whether adding an empty anchor split to the transaction (so that the dividend would show in the stock account as well) would be an improvement or help, or whether it would just screw things up. 
David
 
  On Tue, Feb 19, 2019 at 10:49, Adrien Monteleone<[hidden email]> wrote:   Art,

Welcome to GnuCash!

Someone more familiar with your exact scenario can help you better, but do you need to record the interest in the CD account at all?

Unless there is a time delay between when it is earned and deposited I’d just record the transaction between an income account and the checking account. If there is a time delay, you could hold it temporarily in the CD, but you could also use some other holding account like an undeposited funds asset account which can also be used for checks received but not yet cashed or deposited.

Regards,
Adrien

> On Feb 18, 2019, at 9:04 PM, Art Chimes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I have been trying to learn GnuCash for several months now, and I am
> apparently dumber than I thought. I am pretty good at keeping my checking
> account, but I find more complex actions more challenging.
>
> For example, I bought a CD (cert. of deposit) last year, and it resides in
> my brokerage account. Each month it pays me a small amount of interest,
> which is automatically deposited in my checking account. When the CD
> matures I will get my original money back.
>
> As I learn GnuCash I am still using Quicken (Q 2000!) and in that program
> it is a simple matter there to record the interest+transfer event as an
> IntIncX (interest income transfer) transaction. But I am stymied in an
> effort to correctly record this kind of transaction in GnuCash.
>
> I have searched GnuCash resources extensively but I keep getting sent back
> to an unhelpful example in which the earnings accrue to the CD, to be paid
> out at the end of the term. (e.g.
> https://www.gnucash.org/docs/v3/C/gnucash-guide/invest_int1.html)
>
> Do I create a split transaction that shows the interest income increasing
> the value of the CD's asset account and simultaneously being transferred to
> the checking account? I tried this without success, but I am still pretty
> rocky with splits.
>
> I imagine the procedure is analogous to handling period bond interest
> payments, or mutual fund dividends, etc., but again I am apparently not
> smart enough to find resources that I can use. (It seems the documentation
> — like in Quicken — is not very robust for fixed-income investments.
>
> I really want to move away from Quicken, but right now I am maintaining
> parallel sets of books as I try to get comfortable with GnuCash. Thank you
> for any help you can provide.
>
> Art
>
> PS - I'm a noobie ... please be gentle!
> _______________________________________________


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Re: [GNC] How-to question: CD Interest payments deposited in

Dale Alspach-2
For my purposes I find it sufficient to embed the source in the
description. With mutual funds and stocks I can use the symbol or part of
the name, e.g., OAKIX dividend. For CDs an identifier would need to be
constructed from the bank name and an identifier for the particular CD.

One could create subaccounts of the income accounts for the sources but
this seems messy. Every time something is sold a dormant account would be
left behind.

Dale

On Tue, Feb 19, 2019, 12:23 AM David T. via gnucash-user <
[hidden email] wrote:

>
> Adrien (and Dale and David),
> Each of you correctly suggests a transaction from an income account to the
> checking account.
> However, I suspect that underlying Art's question is the idea that this
> transaction will not have any connection to the original CD account. When
> he calls up the CD register, none of the interest information will show.
> I see a similar circumstance with stock dividends; the dividends are paid
> into a brokerage cash account from an income account, but there's nothing
> in the stock register to show the dividends.
> I've often wondered whether adding an empty anchor split to the
> transaction (so that the dividend would show in the stock account as well)
> would be an improvement or help, or whether it would just screw things up.
> David
>
>   On Tue, Feb 19, 2019 at 10:49, Adrien Monteleone<
> [hidden email]> wrote:   Art,
>
> Welcome to GnuCash!
>
> Someone more familiar with your exact scenario can help you better, but do
> you need to record the interest in the CD account at all?
>
> Unless there is a time delay between when it is earned and deposited I’d
> just record the transaction between an income account and the checking
> account. If there is a time delay, you could hold it temporarily in the CD,
> but you could also use some other holding account like an undeposited funds
> asset account which can also be used for checks received but not yet cashed
> or deposited.
>
> Regards,
> Adrien
>
> > On Feb 18, 2019, at 9:04 PM, Art Chimes <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > I have been trying to learn GnuCash for several months now, and I am
> > apparently dumber than I thought. I am pretty good at keeping my checking
> > account, but I find more complex actions more challenging.
> >
> > For example, I bought a CD (cert. of deposit) last year, and it resides
> in
> > my brokerage account. Each month it pays me a small amount of interest,
> > which is automatically deposited in my checking account. When the CD
> > matures I will get my original money back.
> >
> > As I learn GnuCash I am still using Quicken (Q 2000!) and in that program
> > it is a simple matter there to record the interest+transfer event as an
> > IntIncX (interest income transfer) transaction. But I am stymied in an
> > effort to correctly record this kind of transaction in GnuCash.
> >
> > I have searched GnuCash resources extensively but I keep getting sent
> back
> > to an unhelpful example in which the earnings accrue to the CD, to be
> paid
> > out at the end of the term. (e.g.
> > https://www.gnucash.org/docs/v3/C/gnucash-guide/invest_int1.html)
> >
> > Do I create a split transaction that shows the interest income increasing
> > the value of the CD's asset account and simultaneously being transferred
> to
> > the checking account? I tried this without success, but I am still pretty
> > rocky with splits.
> >
> > I imagine the procedure is analogous to handling period bond interest
> > payments, or mutual fund dividends, etc., but again I am apparently not
> > smart enough to find resources that I can use. (It seems the
> documentation
> > — like in Quicken — is not very robust for fixed-income investments.
> >
> > I really want to move away from Quicken, but right now I am maintaining
> > parallel sets of books as I try to get comfortable with GnuCash. Thank
> you
> > for any help you can provide.
> >
> > Art
> >
> > PS - I'm a noobie ... please be gentle!
> > _______________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> gnucash-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
> If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see
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Re: [GNC] How-to question: CD Interest payments deposited in

David Cousens
In reply to this post by GnuCash - User mailing list
David,

Why should the interest have any connection to the CD account? This would
only be applicable if there was a dividend reinvestment for example as with
share/stocks. This is the only time a dividend would increase your stock
assets rather than your cash assets.

For a cash deposit you either get the interest paid to you according to the
contracted schedule or the interest is accumulated into the deposit. The
latter is rare with cash deposits. Cash deposits are generally with a bank
or similar institution but if they were made through a broker, then a
brokerage account if the interest was paid to that account instead of a
checking account would be an equally valid target for the debit.

Art specifically mentioned that the interest payments were made to his
checking account not the brokerage account. However if the investment was
not made via a broker, I would not record it under a brokerage account as
this is meant to record money you have deposited with the broker for the
purpose of trading through that broker.

If you need to identify where the interest is coming from then a subaccount
of a general income interest account will provide that identification. In
the case of dividends, if you really need to track it to each stock then you
could equally have an income:investments subaccount for each stock.

Accrued dividends where the dividend has been declared by the company, but
not yet paid, you could treat by crediting an asset:investment:declared
dividends account  and debiting an appropriate income dividend account when
it is declared. When it is paid you would then credit the
asset:investment:declared dividends account and debit the appropriate
asset:investment:brokerage or asset :bank account depending on how it was
paid. I.e you treat it in a manner similar to an account receivable.

David Cousens



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Re: [GNC] How-to question: CD Interest payments deposited in

GnuCash - User mailing list
David,
The income derived from that CD, so that's why I imagine he'd want the connection. 
Moreover, I don't think it's unreasonable for someone with stock holdings to want to see the dividends associated with a given stock. Using income subaccounts for each security breaks down when you either have a lot of different holdings or you have closed out holdings. The account structures are hellacious. Been there, gave that up. 
Regardless, I was basing my hypothetical on Art's mention of the Quicken InterestX (or whatever it's called) transaction type, which suggested to me that he was looking for something like that. 
Maybe Art will offer his perspective. 
David T. 
 
 
  On Tue, Feb 19, 2019 at 16:54, David Cousens<[hidden email]> wrote:   David,

Why should the interest have any connection to the CD account? This would
only be applicable if there was a dividend reinvestment for example as with
share/stocks. This is the only time a dividend would increase your stock
assets rather than your cash assets.

For a cash deposit you either get the interest paid to you according to the
contracted schedule or the interest is accumulated into the deposit. The
latter is rare with cash deposits. Cash deposits are generally with a bank
or similar institution but if they were made through a broker, then a
brokerage account if the interest was paid to that account instead of a
checking account would be an equally valid target for the debit.

Art specifically mentioned that the interest payments were made to his
checking account not the brokerage account. However if the investment was
not made via a broker, I would not record it under a brokerage account as
this is meant to record money you have deposited with the broker for the
purpose of trading through that broker.

If you need to identify where the interest is coming from then a subaccount
of a general income interest account will provide that identification. In
the case of dividends, if you really need to track it to each stock then you
could equally have an income:investments subaccount for each stock.

Accrued dividends where the dividend has been declared by the company, but
not yet paid, you could treat by crediting an asset:investment:declared
dividends account  and debiting an appropriate income dividend account when
it is declared. When it is paid you would then credit the
asset:investment:declared dividends account and debit the appropriate
asset:investment:brokerage or asset :bank account depending on how it was
paid. I.e you treat it in a manner similar to an account receivable.

David Cousens



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Re: [GNC] How-to question: CD Interest payments deposited in

Adrien Monteleone-2
In reply to this post by David Cousens
I think the below paragraph more accurately describes how to handle what I was referring to as ‘undeposited funds’ and likely better fits this particular model rather than trying to shoe-horn into some generic structure.

> On Feb 19, 2019, at 5:23 AM, David Cousens <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> Accrued dividends where the dividend has been declared by the company, but
> not yet paid, you could treat by crediting an asset:investment:declared
> dividends account  and debiting an appropriate income dividend account when
> it is declared. When it is paid you would then credit the
> asset:investment:declared dividends account and debit the appropriate
> asset:investment:brokerage or asset :bank account depending on how it was
> paid. I.e you treat it in a manner similar to an account receivable.
>
> David Cousens
>


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Re: [GNC] How-to question: CD Interest payments deposited in

Adrien Monteleone-2
In reply to this post by GnuCash - User mailing list
I don’t think you need individual income sub-accounts, rather a more generic one could suffice and put the detail info either in the description, notes, or memo lines as appropriate for the situation.

This would allow you to see why you received that money, but you don’t necessarily need to see that in the CD asset account. (since the value of the asset never really changed anyway)

If for some reason you want the issuance of the interest payment to be reflected in the CD account as well, then additional cancelling splits can be added—e.g.,

Dr. Assets:CD $10
Cr. Income:CD Income $10
Dr. Assets:Checking $10
Cr. Assets:CD $10

all in the same transaction.

But I don’t know what utility or advantage this would have over simply using a holding account (if needed) or just dropping the money straight to checking and bypassing the CD entirely. And I’d think it more likely to produce clutter and confusion.

I’d use the analogy of rental property here.

You wouldn’t record the receipt of rent in your asset account for the property and then move that money to checking or wherever else, you’d just record the transaction between income and checking and leave the asset out of it entirely. The value of the property itself never changed.

Certainly, if Art clarifies what he’s looking to see and how he wants to retrieve, report or analyze his info, that might guide a more tailored transaction entry example.

Regards,
Adrien

> On Feb 19, 2019, at 6:00 AM, David T. via gnucash-user <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> David,
> The income derived from that CD, so that's why I imagine he'd want the connection.
> Moreover, I don't think it's unreasonable for someone with stock holdings to want to see the dividends associated with a given stock. Using income subaccounts for each security breaks down when you either have a lot of different holdings or you have closed out holdings. The account structures are hellacious. Been there, gave that up.
> Regardless, I was basing my hypothetical on Art's mention of the Quicken InterestX (or whatever it's called) transaction type, which suggested to me that he was looking for something like that.
> Maybe Art will offer his perspective.
> David T.
>


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Re: [GNC] How-to question: CD Interest payments deposited in

David Cousens
In reply to this post by GnuCash - User mailing list
David,

I was/am unsure by what you mean by "connecting" a dividend to a stock or in
Art's case an interest payment to the asset it derives from.  One could
establish a connection in a number of ways( using the description fields for
example but this would not be followable). Are you thinking of something
like the way invoices and payments are linked in the business features which
you could use to identify the stock from which the dividend was produced?  

There is no facility at present in the transaction data structure in GnuCash
to do this. It could possibly be done by adding a KVP to the transaction
structure which identified  the stock in some way where the transaction
involved a trading account but there is a lot of coding to do to provide the
support for identifying the associated stock and provision of a way to
display the relevant account.

I'm not a Quicken user but looking at the Help from Quicken, they handle
transaction creation via a number of dialogues. The Income dialogue is
described here
(https://www.quicken.com/support/how-do-i-record-income-dividend-interest-or-capital-gain)
This is similar to MYOB which I used a long time ago and I think this is
what Art was referring to. I don't know that this explicitly creates a link
between the transaction record and the asset account in Quicken though.

The other dialog they mention is Income -Reinvest which is where the
dividend (or interest) is paidin stock addition to the asset rather than
being received as cash or equivalent. In this case the transaction is
explicitly linked to the asset as the asset account is the target of the
debit component of the transaction.

I do understand the complication of using income sub-account and being left
with orphan account when the stock is sold for example. I only use income
subaccounts myself with a few long term blue chip  stock holdings that I
don't actively trade in but have held for a long time.

David Cousens



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Re: [GNC] How-to question: CD Interest payments deposited in

Subramanian Venkateswaran
Hi,

Would this video in youtube <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWjdy-_G2cU>
help ?

Regards,
Subramanian V.

On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 10:03 AM David Cousens <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> David,
>
> I was/am unsure by what you mean by "connecting" a dividend to a stock or
> in
> Art's case an interest payment to the asset it derives from.  One could
> establish a connection in a number of ways( using the description fields
> for
> example but this would not be followable). Are you thinking of something
> like the way invoices and payments are linked in the business features
> which
> you could use to identify the stock from which the dividend was produced?
>
> There is no facility at present in the transaction data structure in
> GnuCash
> to do this. It could possibly be done by adding a KVP to the transaction
> structure which identified  the stock in some way where the transaction
> involved a trading account but there is a lot of coding to do to provide
> the
> support for identifying the associated stock and provision of a way to
> display the relevant account.
>
> I'm not a Quicken user but looking at the Help from Quicken, they handle
> transaction creation via a number of dialogues. The Income dialogue is
> described here
> (
> https://www.quicken.com/support/how-do-i-record-income-dividend-interest-or-capital-gain
> )
> This is similar to MYOB which I used a long time ago and I think this is
> what Art was referring to. I don't know that this explicitly creates a link
> between the transaction record and the asset account in Quicken though.
>
> The other dialog they mention is Income -Reinvest which is where the
> dividend (or interest) is paidin stock addition to the asset rather than
> being received as cash or equivalent. In this case the transaction is
> explicitly linked to the asset as the asset account is the target of the
> debit component of the transaction.
>
> I do understand the complication of using income sub-account and being left
> with orphan account when the stock is sold for example. I only use income
> subaccounts myself with a few long term blue chip  stock holdings that I
> don't actively trade in but have held for a long time.
>
> David Cousens
>
>
>
> -----
> David Cousens
> --
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Re: [GNC] How-to question: CD Interest payments deposited in

David Cousens
Subramanian,

It may help the OP Art Chimes. We have possibly confused him by going a bit
off topic onto side issues. I use the approach you have illustrated when i
wish to track income to a particular asset but it has the shortcoming of
leaving an empty account after the CD matures. The CD is the same as what
are called Term Deposits in Australia.

David Cousens



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Liz
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Re: [GNC] How-to question: CD Interest payments deposited in

Liz
In reply to this post by David Cousens
On Tue, 19 Feb 2019 05:23:19 -0600 (CST)
David Cousens <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Why should the interest have any connection to the CD account? This
> would only be applicable if there was a dividend reinvestment for
> example as with share/stocks. This is the only time a dividend would
> increase your stock assets rather than your cash assets.

It could help with analysing returns and rationalising investments.
Subaccount use as you suggest would manage this.

Liz
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