[GNC] Hidden accounts and balances

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[GNC] Hidden accounts and balances

Bridgit Griffin
I recently imported 20 years of financial data. The issue I'm facing is
that marking an account as hidden doesn't remove the balance from the
total of the higher level accounts. Such that only active (unhidden)
accounts are reflected in totals. Being accustom to Quicken that did
have this feature either through a close option or hiding the account
removed any of the balances in those accounts from totals. I can't be
the first person who has encountered this, but searching didn't produce
any relevant results. Any suggestions are welcome. Thank you.

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Re: [GNC] Hidden accounts and balances

Colin Law
I would have expected a closed account to have a zero balance.

Colin

On Fri, 10 Aug 2018 at 09:51, Bridgit Griffin <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> I recently imported 20 years of financial data. The issue I'm facing is
> that marking an account as hidden doesn't remove the balance from the
> total of the higher level accounts. Such that only active (unhidden)
> accounts are reflected in totals. Being accustom to Quicken that did
> have this feature either through a close option or hiding the account
> removed any of the balances in those accounts from totals. I can't be
> the first person who has encountered this, but searching didn't produce
> any relevant results. Any suggestions are welcome. Thank you.
>
> _______________________________________________
> gnucash-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
> If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see
> https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information.
> -----
> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>
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Re: [GNC] Hidden accounts and balances

Bridgit Griffin
No not all have zero balances. However, Quicken allows the account to be
treated as if that is the case. It seems the hidden function in GNUcash
doesn't function the same way.

On Fri, Aug 10, 2018, 4:30 AM Colin Law <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I would have expected a closed account to have a zero balance.
>
> Colin
>
> On Fri, 10 Aug 2018 at 09:51, Bridgit Griffin <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> I recently imported 20 years of financial data. The issue I'm facing is
>> that marking an account as hidden doesn't remove the balance from the
>> total of the higher level accounts. Such that only active (unhidden)
>> accounts are reflected in totals. Being accustom to Quicken that did
>> have this feature either through a close option or hiding the account
>> removed any of the balances in those accounts from totals. I can't be
>> the first person who has encountered this, but searching didn't produce
>> any relevant results. Any suggestions are welcome. Thank you.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gnucash-user mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
>> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
>> If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see
>> https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information.
>> -----
>> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
>> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>>
>
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Re: [GNC] Hidden accounts and balances

Maf. King
Sounds like a bug or mis-feature in quicken to me.  I think I'd prefer that my
accounts package didn't hide money from me.

Seriously, though thinking about it for a second, what financial institution
would allow you to close an account you held with them and leave a running
balance for the rest of eternity?  (apologies to those planning a meal at the
Restaurant at the End of the Universe as featured in Hitchhikers Guide to the
Galaxy)  

If you're hiding an Income / Expense account then surely you don't want to
regard that money as no longer earned / spent? It would throw everything out
of whack, IMHO.

0.02
Maf.



On Friday, 10 August 2018 14:11:15 BST Bridgit Griffin wrote:

> No not all have zero balances. However, Quicken allows the account to be
> treated as if that is the case. It seems the hidden function in GNUcash
> doesn't function the same way.
>
> On Fri, Aug 10, 2018, 4:30 AM Colin Law <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > I would have expected a closed account to have a zero balance.
> >
> > Colin
> >
> > On Fri, 10 Aug 2018 at 09:51, Bridgit Griffin <[hidden email]>
> >
> > wrote:
> >> I recently imported 20 years of financial data. The issue I'm facing is
> >> that marking an account as hidden doesn't remove the balance from the
> >> total of the higher level accounts. Such that only active (unhidden)
> >> accounts are reflected in totals. Being accustom to Quicken that did
> >> have this feature either through a close option or hiding the account
> >> removed any of the balances in those accounts from totals. I can't be
> >> the first person who has encountered this, but searching didn't produce
> >> any relevant results. Any suggestions are welcome. Thank you.
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> gnucash-user mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
> >> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
> >> If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see
> >> https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information.
> >> -----
> >> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
> >> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>
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--
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PGP Key fingerprint = 8D68 A91F 733B 2C1F 43B7  2B7C E591 E8E1 0DE7 C542





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Re: [GNC] Hidden accounts and balances

Bridgit Griffin
It's a nice way to handle joint accounts that are no longer joint yet open.
Also, for handling very old accounts not reconciled that are closed. Plus
during the import process from Quicken lots of transactions were removed
from accounts. For example, anything that says cash or salary. As you all
know Quicken allows for categories that GNUcash makes into accounts.
They're not really accounts so what is getting closed? It was a category in
Quicken.

Why offer hidden when it's not?

On Fri, Aug 10, 2018, 8:19 AM Maf. King <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Sounds like a bug or mis-feature in quicken to me.  I think I'd prefer
> that my
> accounts package didn't hide money from me.
>
> Seriously, though thinking about it for a second, what financial
> institution
> would allow you to close an account you held with them and leave a running
> balance for the rest of eternity?  (apologies to those planning a meal at
> the
> Restaurant at the End of the Universe as featured in Hitchhikers Guide to
> the
> Galaxy)
>
> If you're hiding an Income / Expense account then surely you don't want to
> regard that money as no longer earned / spent? It would throw everything
> out
> of whack, IMHO.
>
> 0.02
> Maf.
>
>
>
> On Friday, 10 August 2018 14:11:15 BST Bridgit Griffin wrote:
> > No not all have zero balances. However, Quicken allows the account to be
> > treated as if that is the case. It seems the hidden function in GNUcash
> > doesn't function the same way.
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 10, 2018, 4:30 AM Colin Law <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > I would have expected a closed account to have a zero balance.
> > >
> > > Colin
> > >
> > > On Fri, 10 Aug 2018 at 09:51, Bridgit Griffin <
> [hidden email]>
> > >
> > > wrote:
> > >> I recently imported 20 years of financial data. The issue I'm facing
> is
> > >> that marking an account as hidden doesn't remove the balance from the
> > >> total of the higher level accounts. Such that only active (unhidden)
> > >> accounts are reflected in totals. Being accustom to Quicken that did
> > >> have this feature either through a close option or hiding the account
> > >> removed any of the balances in those accounts from totals. I can't be
> > >> the first person who has encountered this, but searching didn't
> produce
> > >> any relevant results. Any suggestions are welcome. Thank you.
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> gnucash-user mailing list
> > >> [hidden email]
> > >> To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
> > >> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
> > >> If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see
> > >> https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information.
> > >> -----
> > >> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
> > >> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > gnucash-user mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
> > If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see
> > https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. -----
> > Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
> > You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>
>
> --
> Maf. King
> PGP Key fingerprint = 8D68 A91F 733B 2C1F 43B7  2B7C E591 E8E1 0DE7 C542
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [GNC] Hidden accounts and balances

Colin Law
If they are accounts that no longer have any value (monetarily I mean) but
when you look at the account it says it has a value then your accounts are
in error.  Add a transaction to bring the value to zero.

Colin

On Fri, 10 Aug 2018 at 14:43, Bridgit Griffin <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> It's a nice way to handle joint accounts that are no longer joint yet
> open. Also, for handling very old accounts not reconciled that are closed.
> Plus during the import process from Quicken lots of transactions were
> removed from accounts. For example, anything that says cash or salary. As
> you all know Quicken allows for categories that GNUcash makes into
> accounts. They're not really accounts so what is getting closed? It was a
> category in Quicken.
>
> Why offer hidden when it's not?
>
> On Fri, Aug 10, 2018, 8:19 AM Maf. King <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Sounds like a bug or mis-feature in quicken to me.  I think I'd prefer
>> that my
>> accounts package didn't hide money from me.
>>
>> Seriously, though thinking about it for a second, what financial
>> institution
>> would allow you to close an account you held with them and leave a
>> running
>> balance for the rest of eternity?  (apologies to those planning a meal at
>> the
>> Restaurant at the End of the Universe as featured in Hitchhikers Guide to
>> the
>> Galaxy)
>>
>> If you're hiding an Income / Expense account then surely you don't want
>> to
>> regard that money as no longer earned / spent? It would throw everything
>> out
>> of whack, IMHO.
>>
>> 0.02
>> Maf.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Friday, 10 August 2018 14:11:15 BST Bridgit Griffin wrote:
>> > No not all have zero balances. However, Quicken allows the account to be
>> > treated as if that is the case. It seems the hidden function in GNUcash
>> > doesn't function the same way.
>> >
>> > On Fri, Aug 10, 2018, 4:30 AM Colin Law <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > > I would have expected a closed account to have a zero balance.
>> > >
>> > > Colin
>> > >
>> > > On Fri, 10 Aug 2018 at 09:51, Bridgit Griffin <
>> [hidden email]>
>> > >
>> > > wrote:
>> > >> I recently imported 20 years of financial data. The issue I'm facing
>> is
>> > >> that marking an account as hidden doesn't remove the balance from the
>> > >> total of the higher level accounts. Such that only active (unhidden)
>> > >> accounts are reflected in totals. Being accustom to Quicken that did
>> > >> have this feature either through a close option or hiding the account
>> > >> removed any of the balances in those accounts from totals. I can't be
>> > >> the first person who has encountered this, but searching didn't
>> produce
>> > >> any relevant results. Any suggestions are welcome. Thank you.
>> > >>
>> > >> _______________________________________________
>> > >> gnucash-user mailing list
>> > >> [hidden email]
>> > >> To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
>> > >> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
>> > >> If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see
>> > >> https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information.
>> > >> -----
>> > >> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
>> > >> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > gnucash-user mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
>> > https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
>> > If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see
>> > https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. -----
>> > Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
>> > You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Maf. King
>> PGP Key fingerprint = 8D68 A91F 733B 2C1F 43B7  2B7C E591 E8E1 0DE7 C542
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [GNC] Hidden accounts and balances

Derek Atkins
In reply to this post by Bridgit Griffin
Bridgit Griffin <[hidden email]> writes:

> It's a nice way to handle joint accounts that are no longer joint yet open.
> Also, for handling very old accounts not reconciled that are closed. Plus
> during the import process from Quicken lots of transactions were removed
> from accounts. For example, anything that says cash or salary. As you all
> know Quicken allows for categories that GNUcash makes into accounts.
> They're not really accounts so what is getting closed? It was a category in
> Quicken.
>
> Why offer hidden when it's not?

It is hidden -- you wont see the account listed in the Chart of Accounts.
Youre hiding the ACCOUNT, you're not hiding the transactions stored therein.

In the case of a joint account that's no longer joint -- what happened
to the remaining funds in the account?  If you no longer have access to
them then you should remove them from your books in some appropriate way
(taking the account down to zero).

The fact that the account remains open is irrelevant if the funds are
not yours.

> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.

-derek

--
       Derek Atkins, SB '93 MIT EE, SM '95 MIT Media Laboratory
       Member, MIT Student Information Processing Board  (SIPB)
       URL: http://web.mit.edu/warlord/    PP-ASEL-IA     N1NWH
       [hidden email]                        PGP key available
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Re: [GNC] Hidden accounts and balances

Adrien Monteleone-2
In reply to this post by Bridgit Griffin

> On Aug 10, 2018, at 8:43 AM, Bridgit Griffin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> It’s a nice way to handle joint accounts that are no longer joint yet open.

If you control those funds, certainly you wouldn’t want to hide them.

If you don’t control the funds, as noted, you should zero and then hide the account as those aren’t your assets any longer.


> Also, for handling very old accounts not reconciled that are closed.

Reconcile the account, balance it out. Hide it. I created several Miscellaneous expense accounts, one of which is “Balancing” for just such a purpose where nothing else makes sense. (and yes, sometimes I credit Miscellaneous:Balancing, and sometimes I debit it depending on what needed to be done to bring the other account into balance)


> Plus
> during the import process from Quicken lots of transactions were removed
> from accounts.

If transactions were removed from accounts, the import is not yet complete or needs to be redone.

Without those transactions, the affected accounts are in error and won’t balance.


> For example, anything that says cash or salary. As you all
> know Quicken allows for categories that GNUcash makes into accounts.
> They're not really accounts so what is getting closed? It was a category in
> Quicken.

If non-accounts were created out of categories yet the transactions do properly exist where they belong, then delete the extra entries if not those entire accounts. They were never real and shouldn’t exist. Your books (especially your balance sheet and likely income statement) would be forever off otherwise because you’d effectively have duplicated transactions.

Regards,
Adrien

>
> Why offer hidden when it's not?
>
> On Fri, Aug 10, 2018, 8:19 AM Maf. King <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Sounds like a bug or mis-feature in quicken to me.  I think I'd prefer
>> that my
>> accounts package didn't hide money from me.
>>
>> Seriously, though thinking about it for a second, what financial
>> institution
>> would allow you to close an account you held with them and leave a running
>> balance for the rest of eternity?  (apologies to those planning a meal at
>> the
>> Restaurant at the End of the Universe as featured in Hitchhikers Guide to
>> the
>> Galaxy)
>>
>> If you're hiding an Income / Expense account then surely you don't want to
>> regard that money as no longer earned / spent? It would throw everything
>> out
>> of whack, IMHO.
>>
>> 0.02
>> Maf.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Friday, 10 August 2018 14:11:15 BST Bridgit Griffin wrote:
>>> No not all have zero balances. However, Quicken allows the account to be
>>> treated as if that is the case. It seems the hidden function in GNUcash
>>> doesn't function the same way.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Aug 10, 2018, 4:30 AM Colin Law <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> I would have expected a closed account to have a zero balance.
>>>>
>>>> Colin
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, 10 Aug 2018 at 09:51, Bridgit Griffin <
>> [hidden email]>
>>>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> I recently imported 20 years of financial data. The issue I'm facing
>> is
>>>>> that marking an account as hidden doesn't remove the balance from the
>>>>> total of the higher level accounts. Such that only active (unhidden)
>>>>> accounts are reflected in totals. Being accustom to Quicken that did
>>>>> have this feature either through a close option or hiding the account
>>>>> removed any of the balances in those accounts from totals. I can't be
>>>>> the first person who has encountered this, but searching didn't
>> produce
>>>>> any relevant results. Any suggestions are welcome. Thank you.
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> gnucash-user mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
>>>>> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
>>>>> If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see
>>>>> https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information.
>>>>> -----
>>>>> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
>>>>> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> gnucash-user mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
>>> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
>>> If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see
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>>> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
>>> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Maf. King
>> PGP Key fingerprint = 8D68 A91F 733B 2C1F 43B7  2B7C E591 E8E1 0DE7 C542
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [GNC] Hidden accounts and balances

Bridgit Griffin
In reply to this post by Colin Law
For sanity's sake I imported the Quicken file into another financial
program and the results were similar to what is in Quicken. There were
many many more accounts that are closed (aka zeroed balances) that
GNUcash was reporting differently. And if the account had a balance when
I selected closed in the new software that account was removed from the
balances. I think it is in the importing process that causes many issues
as categories and certain transactions were broken out into their own
accounts. Looking like I'll forgo GNUCash for now. Thank you for all the
input.


On 8/10/18 4:30 AM, Colin Law wrote:

> I would have expected a closed account to have a zero balance.
>
> Colin
>
> On Fri, 10 Aug 2018 at 09:51, Bridgit Griffin
> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     I recently imported 20 years of financial data. The issue I'm
>     facing is
>     that marking an account as hidden doesn't remove the balance from the
>     total of the higher level accounts. Such that only active (unhidden)
>     accounts are reflected in totals. Being accustom to Quicken that did
>     have this feature either through a close option or hiding the account
>     removed any of the balances in those accounts from totals. I can't be
>     the first person who has encountered this, but searching didn't
>     produce
>     any relevant results. Any suggestions are welcome. Thank you.
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     gnucash-user mailing list
>     [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
>     https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
>     If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see
>     https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information.
>     -----
>     Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
>     You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>

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Re: [GNC] Hidden accounts and balances

David Cousens
In reply to this post by Bridgit Griffin
Bridgit,

The hidden feature in GnuCash simply means that the account will not be
visible in the Account Tree (and any popup selection menus ? - see below),
not that the account is inactive, and not in use at all and is effectively
removed from the account tree.

A hidden account can still have transactions which target the account, its
balance still sums into any parent accounts. It is primarily a convenience
to simplify the account tree presentation and selection popups. This is an
exerpt from the help manual on creating accounts
https://www.gnucash.org/docs/v3/C/gnucash-help/acct-create.html

"The Placeholder check-box sets an account to read-only status and prevents
the addition of transaction data to the account.

        Note
Setting an account to Placeholder will also hide that account in the pop-up
account list in a register. Sub-accounts to the placeholder account will
still display in the pop-up, however.

The Hidden check box hides an account (and any sub-accounts) in the account
tree. To reset this option, you will first need to open the View → Filter
By... dialog for the account tree and check the Show hidden accounts option.
Doing so will allow you to select the account and reopen this dialog.

        Note
Hidden accounts still appear in the pop-up account list in a register. To
remove an account from this pop-up account list as well, check the
Placeholder check box."

It is also worth noting here that an account which has transactions into it
can be set as a placeholder, i.e. readonly and the existing transactions can
remain, it still has a balance associated with those transactions and
itsbalance should also include the sum of any child accounts as well as any
transactions to the placeholder itself.

If you want to remove an account from the account tree completely the Delete
Account option in the popup menu which appears when you right click on an
account in the account tree presents you with a dialog which will transfer
the transactions in the account to another specified account before deleting
the account.

David Cousens




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David Cousens
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Liz
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Re: [GNC] Hidden accounts and balances

Liz
In reply to this post by Bridgit Griffin
On Fri, 10 Aug 2018 10:21:34 -0500
Bridgit Griffin <[hidden email]> wrote:

> For sanity's sake I imported the Quicken file into another financial
> program and the results were similar to what is in Quicken. There
> were many many more accounts that are closed (aka zeroed balances)
> that GNUcash was reporting differently. And if the account had a
> balance when I selected closed in the new software that account was
> removed from the balances. I think it is in the importing process
> that causes many issues as categories and certain transactions were
> broken out into their own accounts. Looking like I'll forgo GNUCash
> for now. Thank you for all the input.


Just to think more deeply about this

There are some things in Quicken-type accounting which are apparently
balanced but are not in true double entry accounting (yes, I did use
Quicken once)

There are things which are difficult to sort out after an import
        Small incremental imports and data correction from the source
        may be needed

If you have used a work-around (in this example hiding a joint account
balance when circumstances changed, rather than making an entry to
close the account) everything will be laid bare when you go to double
entry accounting.

Lastly
Professional advice on how to set up your books and how to handle odd
situations (like the example above) can often save a lot of your own
time. To me, with an income, it is worthwhile paying for such advice.

Liz
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