[GNC] Bookkeeping for a club's charity account - use business features?

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[GNC] Bookkeeping for a club's charity account - use business features?

foxylady337
As previously mentioned on the list, I’ve just become Treasurer of our local Rotary Club, which has two sets of books, one relating to the business of running the club (annual subs, insurance, secretarial support, etc) and the other to the club’s charitable activities.

The club part is straightforward, and has no need for the business features.

The charity accounts are different in that although the bulk of the income comes from the general public, some of it is extracted from members with particular charitable destinations in mind.

For example, the price of the meals at meetings is rounded up to the nearest pound, and the remainder is earmarked for “Charity Choice”. Not all members attend every meeting, and some members skip the meal and make a token payment to Charity Choice. There are several such income headings to deal with.

The difficulty is that it must be possible to document each individual member’s contributions over the year in order to make a Gift Aid claim to Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs (HMRC), which tops up the members’ contributions by 25%.

I have set up a series of accounts of the form:

Income:Destination1:member1 … Income:Destination1:memberN



Income:DestinationX:member1 … Income:DestinationX:memberN

which allows me to report on the total income for each destination easily, but makes it harder to pick out individual members’ contributions.

Changing the hierarchy to Income:memberN:DestinationnX would make it easy to pick out the Gift Aid detail per member, but harder to report on the total raised for each destination.

It occurs to me that it might be easier to treat members as customers, who would “purchase” Gift-Aid-Claimable (as well as non-claimable) items. In the case of “Foundation Dinners”, members commit in advance to pay for a meal at another member’s home - this commitment would be equivalent to an order payable on delivery of the goods. I wouldn’t anticipate issuing invoices, but a monthly list of defaulters would allow me to issue gentle reminders.

It might well be easier to deal with some of these reporting tasks using spreadsheets, but I’d much prefer to have a single point of entry for each transaction.

It’s been the usual practice for Treasurers to serve for five years, so slow-but-sure is preferable to fast-and-dirty.

I’d appreciate the advice of the list - especially from anyone with practical experience of my situation.

Regards,

Michael

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Re: [GNC] Bookkeeping for a club's charity account - use business features?

Adrien Monteleone-2
The business features certainly offer some perks with respect to reporting, reminders and info lookups.

I’d probably take that approach in some fashion if I had to tackle the problem myself.

However, if the only reason you are considering using them is simply to handle multi-dimensional reporting, consider this:

The Transaction Report (as well as some other reports) can be filtered (with regular expressions, not just with other accounts) and that report in particular can have 2 sorting dimensions with sub-totals. One could also apply a view filter to an account or run a search and then run an ‘Account Report’ from the result.

For multi-dimensional issues, I’d solve those by using the ‘Description’ field as one dimension, and the ’Notes’ and/or ‘Memo’ fields as additional dimensions. (the Action fields might also be useful here) This would be in addition to the regular ‘Account’ field as the primary dimension.

You might even be able to keep all donations in a single account or a small handful of accounts, greatly simplifying your CoA and other organization reports.

Consider booking the donations using the member name as the Description and putting the destination in the Notes or other fields. You could also track the sources such as ‘Foundation Dinners’ if you’ll have more than one, and the need to do so, in any other unused fields.

As long as you are consistent in where the information appears, a semi-custom filtered report could be achieved.

The drawback to regular transactions would be issuing reminders, but that could be accomplished by employing a ‘receivables’ type account that would be filled with scheduled transactions for each member, and then the actual payments would reduce those balances as transfers to some other account to accumulate donations YTD. (this would be a second layer of transaction info, not the tracking of actual funds moving around) You could then run a report based on such accounts.

The only drawback to this approach would be if you also needed GnuCash to double as a member ‘database’ with address, contact info, etc. In that case, making all members ‘customers’ might be the better route because such information already has a place to be stored without having to shoe-horn it into individual transactions. (but even that would be possible, and auto-fill will greatly assist with data entry)


Regards,
Adrien


> On Aug 23, 2019 w34d235, at 3:24 AM, Michael Hendry <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> As previously mentioned on the list, I’ve just become Treasurer of our local Rotary Club, which has two sets of books, one relating to the business of running the club (annual subs, insurance, secretarial support, etc) and the other to the club’s charitable activities.
>
> The club part is straightforward, and has no need for the business features.
>
> The charity accounts are different in that although the bulk of the income comes from the general public, some of it is extracted from members with particular charitable destinations in mind.
>
> For example, the price of the meals at meetings is rounded up to the nearest pound, and the remainder is earmarked for “Charity Choice”. Not all members attend every meeting, and some members skip the meal and make a token payment to Charity Choice. There are several such income headings to deal with.
>
> The difficulty is that it must be possible to document each individual member’s contributions over the year in order to make a Gift Aid claim to Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs (HMRC), which tops up the members’ contributions by 25%.
>
> I have set up a series of accounts of the form:
>
> Income:Destination1:member1 … Income:Destination1:memberN
>
> …
>
> Income:DestinationX:member1 … Income:DestinationX:memberN
>
> which allows me to report on the total income for each destination easily, but makes it harder to pick out individual members’ contributions.
>
> Changing the hierarchy to Income:memberN:DestinationnX would make it easy to pick out the Gift Aid detail per member, but harder to report on the total raised for each destination.
>
> It occurs to me that it might be easier to treat members as customers, who would “purchase” Gift-Aid-Claimable (as well as non-claimable) items. In the case of “Foundation Dinners”, members commit in advance to pay for a meal at another member’s home - this commitment would be equivalent to an order payable on delivery of the goods. I wouldn’t anticipate issuing invoices, but a monthly list of defaulters would allow me to issue gentle reminders.
>
> It might well be easier to deal with some of these reporting tasks using spreadsheets, but I’d much prefer to have a single point of entry for each transaction.
>
> It’s been the usual practice for Treasurers to serve for five years, so slow-but-sure is preferable to fast-and-dirty.
>
> I’d appreciate the advice of the list - especially from anyone with practical experience of my situation.
>
> Regards,
>
> Michael

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Re: [GNC] Bookkeeping for a club's charity account - use business features?

GnuCash - User mailing list
In reply to this post by foxylady337
On 23/08/2019 09:24, Michael Hendry wrote:

First, Adrien makes some very valid points which I think you should
consider.

> As previously mentioned on the list, I’ve just become Treasurer of our local Rotary Club, which has two sets of books, one relating to the business of running the club (annual subs, insurance, secretarial support, etc) and the other to the club’s charitable activities.
>
> The club part is straightforward, and has no need for the business features.
>
> The charity accounts are different in that although the bulk of the income comes from the general public, some of it is extracted from members with particular charitable destinations in mind.

Charitable organisations have some quite specific accounting
requirements in the UK and most countries.  Don't let the other people
fool you about where the money is going to and from.

> For example, the price of the meals at meetings is rounded up to the nearest pound, and the remainder is earmarked for “Charity Choice”. Not all members attend every meeting, and some members skip the meal and make a token payment to Charity Choice. There are several such income headings to deal with.

Sounds like crap to me.

Think about this: I went to dinner with my mates, said it cost more than
it did and said the difference was for charity.  Would you believe me?

> The difficulty is that it must be possible to document each individual member’s contributions over the year in order to make a Gift Aid claim to Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs (HMRC), which tops up the members’ contributions by 25%.

OK, it sounds to me like you're being asked to cheat HMRC.  Are you
prepared to do that?

> I have set up a series of accounts of the form:
>
> Income:Destination1:member1 … Income:Destination1:memberN
>
> …
>
> Income:DestinationX:member1 … Income:DestinationX:memberN

don't do it like that, think of income as a source not a person, "where
are we getting our income from?", "who are we paying our expenses too?",
"are we washing money?"

> which allows me to report on the total income for each destination easily, but makes it harder to pick out individual members’ contributions.
>
> Changing the hierarchy to Income:memberN:DestinationnX would make it easy to pick out the Gift Aid detail per member, but harder to report on the total raised for each destination.

gnc is unusually flexible in that you can change the hierarchy on the
fly and report on that (you should also look at the buglist if you find
altering, editing or creating accounts turns out to be a problem).

> It occurs to me that it might be easier to treat members as customers, who would “purchase” Gift-Aid-Claimable (as well as non-claimable) items. In the case of “Foundation Dinners”, members commit in advance to pay for a meal at another member’s home - this commitment would be equivalent to an order payable on delivery of the goods. I wouldn’t anticipate issuing invoices, but a monthly list of defaulters would allow me to issue gentle reminders.

This is a classic charitable issue.  Our american friends have their
answers but they only work in some states and not others.

I think you'll find your Rotary Club might have been breaking the
charitable reporting rules for a while.

> It might well be easier to deal with some of these reporting tasks using spreadsheets, but I’d much prefer to have a single point of entry for each transaction.

The problem isn't a gnc one, start here

https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/charity-commission

depending on how much money you are processing you may or may not need
to report some stuff.

> It’s been the usual practice for Treasurers to serve for five years, so slow-but-sure is preferable to fast-and-dirty.
>
> I’d appreciate the advice of the list - especially from anyone with practical experience of my situation.

This isn't about gnc, this is about understanding the rules about
charities.  Having a dinner with friends and declaring it a charitable
contribution is a bit last century.

Hitting a women is also regarded as wrong.

Voting a stupid man president or a buffoon prime minister is, however,
allowed in some countries.

HTH

Wm

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Re: [GNC] Bookkeeping for a club's charity account - use business features?

foxylady337
In reply to this post by Adrien Monteleone-2
> On 23 Aug 2019, at 14:48, Adrien Monteleone <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> The business features certainly offer some perks with respect to reporting, reminders and info lookups.
>
> I’d probably take that approach in some fashion if I had to tackle the problem myself.
>
> However, if the only reason you are considering using them is simply to handle multi-dimensional reporting, consider this:
>
> The Transaction Report (as well as some other reports) can be filtered (with regular expressions, not just with other accounts) and that report in particular can have 2 sorting dimensions with sub-totals. One could also apply a view filter to an account or run a search and then run an ‘Account Report’ from the result.
>
> For multi-dimensional issues, I’d solve those by using the ‘Description’ field as one dimension, and the ’Notes’ and/or ‘Memo’ fields as additional dimensions. (the Action fields might also be useful here) This would be in addition to the regular ‘Account’ field as the primary dimension.
>
> You might even be able to keep all donations in a single account or a small handful of accounts, greatly simplifying your CoA and other organization reports.
>
> Consider booking the donations using the member name as the Description and putting the destination in the Notes or other fields. You could also track the sources such as ‘Foundation Dinners’ if you’ll have more than one, and the need to do so, in any other unused fields.
>
> As long as you are consistent in where the information appears, a semi-custom filtered report could be achieved.
>
> The drawback to regular transactions would be issuing reminders, but that could be accomplished by employing a ‘receivables’ type account that would be filled with scheduled transactions for each member, and then the actual payments would reduce those balances as transfers to some other account to accumulate donations YTD. (this would be a second layer of transaction info, not the tracking of actual funds moving around) You could then run a report based on such accounts.
>
> The only drawback to this approach would be if you also needed GnuCash to double as a member ‘database’ with address, contact info, etc. In that case, making all members ‘customers’ might be the better route because such information already has a place to be stored without having to shoe-horn it into individual transactions. (but even that would be possible, and auto-fill will greatly assist with data entry)
>
>
> Regards,
> Adrien

Thanks, Adrien.

Plenty of food for thought there!

I’m not desperately keen on using free text in the Description and Notes fields because minor variations in spelling might well cause a transaction to be missed, but I can see that this would greatly speed up data entry.

I’ve already set up an Asset account called “Members’ Commitments”, which will be populated (e.g.) as members commit to being paying guests at a Foundation Dinner, and then reduced to zero once a suitable date has been negotiated, the meal eaten and payment received.

I can foresee a lot of revisions going on until I settle down on a workable method.

Regards,

Michael

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Re: [GNC] Bookkeeping for a club's charity account - use business features?

DavidWhiting
I'm also experimenting with ways of using gnucash for a member
organisation, in my case a local football club with 27 teams across
different age groups. We have around 450 current members each year, with a
fair amount of churn (about 100 members leave and 100 new members join each
year as players switch between clubs in the area, or stop playing and new
players start). Each member pays monthly subs so I have a lot of
transactions to deal with.

At the moment I have members as assets accounts, e.g. assets:members:david
and transactions to income:subs. When members pay, ideally directly into
the club current (checking) account, I have the transaction go from the
bank account to the appropriate member account, e.g. assets:current
assets:current account -> assets:members:david. This way the asset:member
accounts show me the transactions for a given member and the income:subs
account shows me how much I (should) have received in subs. If members have
not paid-up then there will be a balance owed in their asset account. You
could have separate income accounts for each destination. So, with the
following accounts:

Assets:members:member1
Assets:members:member2
Assets:members:memberN

Income:destination1
Income:destination2
Income:destinationN

And the following transactions:

Assets:members:member1 -> Income:destination2  $10
Assets:current assets:checking account -> Assets:members:member1 $10

Assets:members:member1 -> Income:destination3  $20

you would be able to see how much each member has contributed (or at least
committed to contributing) to each destination and easily see how much each
member owes. I've created a demo gnucash file to demonstrate this and
uploaded it here:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ccf3ugufp79miht/membership%20example.gnucash?dl=0
In this example you can see that member 1 has committed to contributing £10
to destination 1 and £20 to destination 2, but has only paid £10 so far, so
owes £20. If you look at income:destinations:destination 1 you can see that
£25 has been committed in total, and so on.

I have no accounting training whatsoever (this is the careful application
of brute force and ignorance) so this could be really bad practice, but it
does seem to me to be transparent and allows me to easily track where the
money is and who I need to chase for subs payments (a significant part of
my life now!).

David





On Fri, 23 Aug 2019 at 18:39, Michael Hendry <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> > On 23 Aug 2019, at 14:48, Adrien Monteleone <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > The business features certainly offer some perks with respect to
> reporting, reminders and info lookups.
> >
> > I’d probably take that approach in some fashion if I had to tackle the
> problem myself.
> >
> > However, if the only reason you are considering using them is simply to
> handle multi-dimensional reporting, consider this:
> >
> > The Transaction Report (as well as some other reports) can be filtered
> (with regular expressions, not just with other accounts) and that report in
> particular can have 2 sorting dimensions with sub-totals. One could also
> apply a view filter to an account or run a search and then run an ‘Account
> Report’ from the result.
> >
> > For multi-dimensional issues, I’d solve those by using the ‘Description’
> field as one dimension, and the ’Notes’ and/or ‘Memo’ fields as additional
> dimensions. (the Action fields might also be useful here) This would be in
> addition to the regular ‘Account’ field as the primary dimension.
> >
> > You might even be able to keep all donations in a single account or a
> small handful of accounts, greatly simplifying your CoA and other
> organization reports.
> >
> > Consider booking the donations using the member name as the Description
> and putting the destination in the Notes or other fields. You could also
> track the sources such as ‘Foundation Dinners’ if you’ll have more than
> one, and the need to do so, in any other unused fields.
> >
> > As long as you are consistent in where the information appears, a
> semi-custom filtered report could be achieved.
> >
> > The drawback to regular transactions would be issuing reminders, but
> that could be accomplished by employing a ‘receivables’ type account that
> would be filled with scheduled transactions for each member, and then the
> actual payments would reduce those balances as transfers to some other
> account to accumulate donations YTD. (this would be a second layer of
> transaction info, not the tracking of actual funds moving around) You could
> then run a report based on such accounts.
> >
> > The only drawback to this approach would be if you also needed GnuCash
> to double as a member ‘database’ with address, contact info, etc. In that
> case, making all members ‘customers’ might be the better route because such
> information already has a place to be stored without having to shoe-horn it
> into individual transactions. (but even that would be possible, and
> auto-fill will greatly assist with data entry)
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> > Adrien
>
> Thanks, Adrien.
>
> Plenty of food for thought there!
>
> I’m not desperately keen on using free text in the Description and Notes
> fields because minor variations in spelling might well cause a transaction
> to be missed, but I can see that this would greatly speed up data entry.
>
> I’ve already set up an Asset account called “Members’ Commitments”, which
> will be populated (e.g.) as members commit to being paying guests at a
> Foundation Dinner, and then reduced to zero once a suitable date has been
> negotiated, the meal eaten and payment received.
>
> I can foresee a lot of revisions going on until I settle down on a
> workable method.
>
> Regards,
>
> Michael
>
> _______________________________________________
> gnucash-user mailing list
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> To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
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--
David Whiting
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Re: [GNC] Bookkeeping for a club's charity account - use business features?

Mike or Penny Novack-4
In reply to this post by GnuCash - User mailing list
On 8/23/2019 10:59 AM, Wm via gnucash-user wrote:

>
>> For example, the price of the meals at meetings is rounded up to the
>> nearest pound, and the remainder is earmarked for “Charity Choice”.
>> Not all members attend every meeting, and some members skip the meal
>> and make a token payment to Charity Choice. There are several such
>> income headings to deal with.
>
> Sounds like crap to me.
>
> Think about this: I went to dinner with my mates, said it cost more
> than it did and said the difference was for charity.  Would you
> believe me?
>
>> The difficulty is that it must be possible to document each
>> individual member’s contributions over the year in order to make a
>> Gift Aid claim to Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs (HMRC), which
>> tops up the members’ contributions by 25%.
>
> OK, it sounds to me like you're being asked to cheat HMRC.  Are you
> prepared to do that?

You know all that much, both about the charitable components (tax
deductible, need to be reported separately) of organizations that while
non-profit (tax exempt) are not "deductible" << for example, a
"fraternal" society -- what this is >> and specifically what is required
in the UK?

What was asked for here seemed perfectly above board to me. Besides
being treasurer of 501(c)3's I also belong to organizations that are not
deductible BUT do sometimes make charitable donations. In some cases,
that is a lot of what these organizations do beyond their social
functions << Lions, Shriners, etc. >>  I do not know how they report
even here in the US let alone in the UK.

Michael D Novack



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Re: [GNC] Bookkeeping for a club's charity account - use business features?

foxylady337
> On 24 Aug 2019, at 15:41, Mike or Penny Novack <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 8/23/2019 10:59 AM, Wm via gnucash-user wrote:
>>
>>> For example, the price of the meals at meetings is rounded up to the nearest pound, and the remainder is earmarked for “Charity Choice”. Not all members attend every meeting, and some members skip the meal and make a token payment to Charity Choice. There are several such income headings to deal with.
>>
>> Sounds like crap to me.
>>
>> Think about this: I went to dinner with my mates, said it cost more than it did and said the difference was for charity.  Would you believe me?
>>
>>> The difficulty is that it must be possible to document each individual member’s contributions over the year in order to make a Gift Aid claim to Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs (HMRC), which tops up the members’ contributions by 25%.
>>
>> OK, it sounds to me like you're being asked to cheat HMRC.  Are you prepared to do that?
>
> You know all that much, both about the charitable components (tax deductible, need to be reported separately) of organizations that while non-profit (tax exempt) are not "deductible" << for example, a "fraternal" society -- what this is >> and specifically what is required in the UK?
>
> What was asked for here seemed perfectly above board to me. Besides being treasurer of 501(c)3's I also belong to organizations that are not deductible BUT do sometimes make charitable donations. In some cases, that is a lot of what these organizations do beyond their social functions << Lions, Shriners, etc. >>  I do not know how they report even here in the US let alone in the UK.

Thanks, Mike.

The club itself keeps its own financial records for running expenses etc. Any income arising from charitable activities is passed to a trust which is registered as a charity with OSCR (the relevant regulatory authority in Scotland). Any donation to this charity from a member (or indeed from any member of the public) is eligible for Gift Aid. The treasurer for the last five years is a retired banker, and his accounts were all certified by a chartered account before being passed on to OSCR so I think the principles have been established. What I am trying to do is find the best way of using GC to record and report the necessary information.

My predecessor has passed on unpopulated spreadsheets for this club year, and I plan to run both methods until I can decide which is better.

Regards,

Michael

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Re: [GNC] Bookkeeping for a club's charity account - use business features?

Mike or Penny Novack-4
On 8/24/2019 11:57 AM, Michael Hendry wrote:

> Thanks, Mike.
>
> The club itself keeps its own financial records for running expenses etc. Any income arising from charitable activities is passed to a trust which is registered as a charity with OSCR (the relevant regulatory authority in Scotland). Any donation to this charity from a member (or indeed from any member of the public) is eligible for Gift Aid. The treasurer for the last five years is a retired banker, and his accounts were all certified by a chartered account before being passed on to OSCR so I think the principles have been established. What I am trying to do is find the best way of using GC to record and report the necessary information.
OK, like I said, I've done stiff like this but don't know YOUR regs and
seems different so I want clarification.

In addition to knowing the amounts (these extras that are designated as
charitable donations) you have to report to the government "from whom"?
Here we would not -- thus at an event, might be stated "event cost $X
per person, pay at least that much. If people pay more, the extra will
be given to charity A. The organization would report the amount, but how
much from each person who did donate extra. Like when at a meeting of an
organization a motion is raised to donate to some charity by passing
around a hat.

If it is similar where you are, what is the tracking by member for?

Michael
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Re: [GNC] Bookkeeping for a club's charity account - use business features?

foxylady337
> On 24 Aug 2019, at 21:58, Mike or Penny Novack <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 8/24/2019 11:57 AM, Michael Hendry wrote:
>
>> Thanks, Mike.
>>
>> The club itself keeps its own financial records for running expenses etc. Any income arising from charitable activities is passed to a trust which is registered as a charity with OSCR (the relevant regulatory authority in Scotland). Any donation to this charity from a member (or indeed from any member of the public) is eligible for Gift Aid. The treasurer for the last five years is a retired banker, and his accounts were all certified by a chartered account before being passed on to OSCR so I think the principles have been established. What I am trying to do is find the best way of using GC to record and report the necessary information.
> OK, like I said, I've done stiff like this but don't know YOUR regs and seems different so I want clarification.
>
> In addition to knowing the amounts (these extras that are designated as charitable donations) you have to report to the government "from whom"? Here we would not -- thus at an event, might be stated "event cost $X per person, pay at least that much. If people pay more, the extra will be given to charity A. The organization would report the amount, but how much from each person who did donate extra. Like when at a meeting of an organization a motion is raised to donate to some charity by passing around a hat.
>
> If it is similar where you are, what is the tracking by member for?

This is for the Gift Aid claim. We have to put in an annual claim to the taxman, identifying each contributor and his/her total amount donated during the year. Many UK charities use this method to boost their income - for example, when you pay the National Trust for Scotland the admission fee for one of their properties, they’ll ask you if you’re willing for them to make a Gift Aid claim and take down enough details to make that claim. You have to have enough income to be taxed at the basic rate, and the charity can claim tax back at a rate 25% of the admission fee.

I have to account for the income as it is received, and I’d prefer to record sufficient detail in GC at that point, rather than run a parallel record on a spreadsheet or whatever.

Regards,

Michael

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Re: [GNC] Bookkeeping for a club's charity account - use business features?

Mike or Penny Novack-4
On 8/24/2019 5:39 PM, Michael Hendry wrote:

> This is for the Gift Aid claim. We have to put in an annual claim to the taxman, identifying each contributor and his/her total amount donated during the year. Many UK charities use this method to boost their income - for example, when you pay the National Trust for Scotland the admission fee for one of their properties, they’ll ask you if you’re willing for them to make a Gift Aid claim and take down enough details to make that claim. You have to have enough income to be taxed at the basic rate, and the charity can claim tax back at a rate 25% of the admission fee.
>
> I have to account for the income as it is received, and I’d prefer to record sufficient detail in GC at that point, rather than run a parallel record on a spreadsheet or whatever.
>
> Regards,
>
> Michael
>
OK, I think I understand now. And it seems straight forward to implement
in gnucash, though you will an easy way to suppress the detail on most
reports.

When your organization has money come in for any purpose, that is a
debit to cash (or some bank account) and a credit to some income
account. Could be a split to multiple income accounts. Follow so far?

So in your income tree, one item is "donations". Under that you have an
account for each donor. A FULL "statement of revenues and expenses" <<
gnucash name Income Statement but I gave it the usual title a non-profit
uses; a for profit says "profit and loss" >> shows the detail (total for
each donor. But usually you would probably want to suppress that. You
could try a dummy placeholder (say named "donors") in between donations
and the individual donor accounts and try hiding that subtree when
producing the report for the governing board who might want to know the
total of all donations but not how much from each whom.

Michael

PS: So a typical transaction for an event where person A "rounds up" as
a donation.
      debit
          cash   X
      credit
          dinner share   X - Y
           donor A          Y

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Re: [GNC] Bookkeeping for a club's charity account - use business features?

foxylady337
> On 24 Aug 2019, at 23:03, Mike or Penny Novack <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 8/24/2019 5:39 PM, Michael Hendry wrote:
>
>> This is for the Gift Aid claim. We have to put in an annual claim to the taxman, identifying each contributor and his/her total amount donated during the year. Many UK charities use this method to boost their income - for example, when you pay the National Trust for Scotland the admission fee for one of their properties, they’ll ask you if you’re willing for them to make a Gift Aid claim and take down enough details to make that claim. You have to have enough income to be taxed at the basic rate, and the charity can claim tax back at a rate 25% of the admission fee.
>>
>> I have to account for the income as it is received, and I’d prefer to record sufficient detail in GC at that point, rather than run a parallel record on a spreadsheet or whatever.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Michael
>>
> OK, I think I understand now. And it seems straight forward to implement in gnucash, though you will an easy way to suppress the detail on most reports.
>
> When your organization has money come in for any purpose, that is a debit to cash (or some bank account) and a credit to some income account. Could be a split to multiple income accounts. Follow so far?
>
> So in your income tree, one item is "donations". Under that you have an account for each donor. A FULL "statement of revenues and expenses" << gnucash name Income Statement but I gave it the usual title a non-profit uses; a for profit says "profit and loss" >> shows the detail (total for each donor. But usually you would probably want to suppress that. You could try a dummy placeholder (say named "donors") in between donations and the individual donor accounts and try hiding that subtree when producing the report for the governing board who might want to know the total of all donations but not how much from each whom.
>
> Michael
>
> PS: So a typical transaction for an event where person A "rounds up" as a donation.
>     debit
>         cash   X
>     credit
>         dinner share   X - Y
>          donor A          Y
>

It’s actually a little simpler than that, because a nominated cashier collects X from each member at the door but only has to pay X - Y to the venue after the meal, passing Y to the Charities Account.

We have chosen to label this income “Charity Choice” - two members are selected at the end of the year to nominate their favourite charities to receive the proceeds.

Thus I have:

Income:Charity Choice:MemberA
Income:Charity Choice:MemberB
etc.

Visiting members from other Rotary Clubs are charged in the same way, and (so far) I’ve recorded this income in the parent account (Income:Charity Choice), but there might be an argument for accumulating this income in a generic non-member child account (Income:Charity Choice:NonMember). We don’t claim Gift Aid on the latter.

My difficulty is that we have several other buckets in which we accumulate income from members during the year, so I need:

Income:Bucket1:MemberA … MemberN
Income:Bucket2:MemberA … MemberN
etc.

From time to time during the year I need to report on the total contents of each bucket, and once a year I have to report each individual member’s total contributions to all buckets. I think that using the Business Features might ease these two reporting requirements in that the Income buckets wouldn’t need all these child accounts and each member would have all bucket contributions recorded in his own customer record. This would also allow me to record commitments to contribute to any particular bucket at some point in the future and report on these via Accounts Receivable.

Having no experience of the Business Features, I may not be seeing the elephant trap concealed in my path!

Regards,

Michael



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Re: [GNC] Bookkeeping for a club's charity account - use business features?

Mike or Penny Novack-4
On 8/25/2019 3:25 AM, Michael Hendry wrote:

First (and an important question)
     Is your organization om the cash or accrual basis? You should
always state that. The business features of gnucash only work for
accrual. And I see that your organization does pledges. Here in the US,
pledges ARE receivable,but only according to the terms of the pledge <<
thus if a person pledged X a year for five years, only the X for the
current year due NOW >> So pledge accounting will require extra work
unless all your pledges are simple, immediate pledges.

But you can easily have a second set of books to keep and report on "by
member" stuff, and if using the business features, can invoice. Note
though that  at least in the US "membership dies" are not really
receivables <<you are legally allowed to drop out of a voluntary
organization at any time -- organizational rules about "demits", etc.
apply only if you want to rejoin>> However many organizations even cash
basis [prefer being able to send out "statements" (invoices to members)

Notice that I misunderstood.What I was suggesting was if you had to
supply to the government the CORRECT member name for the donations, not
just that it had to be SOME member's name. The latter is of course far
simpler in terms of record keeping << I was picturing the former because
possibly there were by person limits >>

Michael

PS: I do NOT attempt to get gnucash to produce reports in their final
form. Easier to export full reports and then copy into a document that
gets edited to remove extraneous detail, insert annotations, etc.


>> On 24 Aug 2019, at 23:03, Mike or Penny Novack <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On 8/24/2019 5:39 PM, Michael Hendry wrote:
>>
>>> This is for the Gift Aid claim. We have to put in an annual claim to the taxman, identifying each contributor and his/her total amount donated during the year. Many UK charities use this method to boost their income - for example, when you pay the National Trust for Scotland the admission fee for one of their properties, they’ll ask you if you’re willing for them to make a Gift Aid claim and take down enough details to make that claim. You have to have enough income to be taxed at the basic rate, and the charity can claim tax back at a rate 25% of the admission fee.
>>>
>>> I have to account for the income as it is received, and I’d prefer to record sufficient detail in GC at that point, rather than run a parallel record on a spreadsheet or whatever.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Michael
>>>
>> OK, I think I understand now. And it seems straight forward to implement in gnucash, though you will an easy way to suppress the detail on most reports.
>>
>> When your organization has money come in for any purpose, that is a debit to cash (or some bank account) and a credit to some income account. Could be a split to multiple income accounts. Follow so far?
>>
>> So in your income tree, one item is "donations". Under that you have an account for each donor. A FULL "statement of revenues and expenses" << gnucash name Income Statement but I gave it the usual title a non-profit uses; a for profit says "profit and loss" >> shows the detail (total for each donor. But usually you would probably want to suppress that. You could try a dummy placeholder (say named "donors") in between donations and the individual donor accounts and try hiding that subtree when producing the report for the governing board who might want to know the total of all donations but not how much from each whom.
>>
>> Michael
>>
>> PS: So a typical transaction for an event where person A "rounds up" as a donation.
>>      debit
>>          cash   X
>>      credit
>>          dinner share   X - Y
>>           donor A          Y
>>
> It’s actually a little simpler than that, because a nominated cashier collects X from each member at the door but only has to pay X - Y to the venue after the meal, passing Y to the Charities Account.
>
> We have chosen to label this income “Charity Choice” - two members are selected at the end of the year to nominate their favourite charities to receive the proceeds.
>
> Thus I have:
>
> Income:Charity Choice:MemberA
> Income:Charity Choice:MemberB
> etc.
>
> Visiting members from other Rotary Clubs are charged in the same way, and (so far) I’ve recorded this income in the parent account (Income:Charity Choice), but there might be an argument for accumulating this income in a generic non-member child account (Income:Charity Choice:NonMember). We don’t claim Gift Aid on the latter.
>
> My difficulty is that we have several other buckets in which we accumulate income from members during the year, so I need:
>
> Income:Bucket1:MemberA … MemberN
> Income:Bucket2:MemberA … MemberN
> etc.
>
>  From time to time during the year I need to report on the total contents of each bucket, and once a year I have to report each individual member’s total contributions to all buckets. I think that using the Business Features might ease these two reporting requirements in that the Income buckets wouldn’t need all these child accounts and each member would have all bucket contributions recorded in his own customer record. This would also allow me to record commitments to contribute to any particular bucket at some point in the future and report on these via Accounts Receivable.
>
> Having no experience of the Business Features, I may not be seeing the elephant trap concealed in my path!
>
> Regards,
>
> Michael
>
>
>
>


--
There is no possibility of social justice on a dead planet except the equality of the grave.

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Re: [GNC] Bookkeeping for a club's charity account - use business features?

foxylady337
> On 25 Aug 2019, at 15:55, Mike or Penny Novack <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 8/25/2019 3:25 AM, Michael Hendry wrote:
>
> First (and an important question)
>    Is your organization om the cash or accrual basis? You should always state that.

Cash.

> The business features of gnucash only work for accrual.

In that case, my question in the subject line is answered, in the negative!

> And I see that your organization does pledges. Here in the US, pledges ARE receivable,but only according to the terms of the pledge << thus if a person pledged X a year for five years, only the X for the current year due NOW >> So pledge accounting will require extra work unless all your pledges are simple, immediate pledges.

Volunteering to be a paying guest at a “Foundation Dinner” is the only undertaking that fits into the definition of a pledge, but I can see that setting up an invoice for it would make it “receivable”, and have a lifetime that went beyond the financial year’s end.

But if I avoided setting up invoices for this particular fundraising activity, could I use the Business Features to record income from a each member (“Customer”) as it arises?

>
> But you can easily have a second set of books to keep and report on "by member" stuff, and if using the business features, can invoice.

That’s a method I hadn’t thought of, and will look into. There’s the obvious risk of these two sets of books getting out of step.

> Note though that  at least in the US "membership dies" are not really receivables <<you are legally allowed to drop out of a voluntary organization at any time -- organizational rules about "demits", etc. apply only if you want to rejoin>> However many organizations even cash basis [prefer being able to send out "statements" (invoices to members)
>
> Notice that I misunderstood.What I was suggesting was if you had to supply to the government the CORRECT member name for the donations, not just that it had to be SOME member's name. The latter is of course far simpler in terms of record keeping << I was picturing the former because possibly there were by person limits >>

From the point of view of the annual report to OSCR (the charity regulator) there is no need for detailed reporting of income - see https://www.oscr.org.uk/media/1800/2015-01-27-example-accounts-scio.pdf - but the annual claim for Gift Aid requires the total contributed per annum by each individual member. The 25% boost that Gift Aid covers is the reason why most Rotary Clubs in the UK set up charities which operate “at arms-length” from the clubs themselves but whose trustees are club officers.

>
> Michael
>
> PS: I do NOT attempt to get gnucash to produce reports in their final form. Easier to export full reports and then copy into a document that gets edited to remove extraneous detail, insert annotations, etc.
>

The way I’ve set up the accounts may need review, as I’m going to require a lot of individual searches to isolate contributions from individual members.

I think I need to remove a tier and identify the intended destination of the income using a tag in a searchable field.

Income:Destination1:MemberA … MemberN
Income:Destination2:MemberA … MemberN

Income:DestinationX:MemberA … MemberN

 - a total of X * N accounts.


Becomes

Income:Donations:MemberA … MemberN, with Destinations 1…X recorded in the Description field of each transaction.

 - a total of N accounts.

Thanks for your continued interest and support,

Michael


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Re: [GNC] Bookkeeping for a club's charity account - use business features?

Greg Feneis
Michael, I use GnuCash for my cash business and don't have any trouble with
it.  I think the only trouble you may have is with report generation.

Kind regards, Greg Feneis
(Pixel 3)


On Mon, Aug 26, 2019, 01:46 Michael Hendry <[hidden email]> wrote:

> > On 25 Aug 2019, at 15:55, Mike or Penny Novack <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > On 8/25/2019 3:25 AM, Michael Hendry wrote:
> >
> > First (and an important question)
> >    Is your organization om the cash or accrual basis? You should always
> state that.
>
> Cash.
>
> > The business features of gnucash only work for accrual.
>
> In that case, my question in the subject line is answered, in the
> negative!
>
> > And I see that your organization does pledges. Here in the US, pledges
> ARE receivable,but only according to the terms of the pledge << thus if a
> person pledged X a year for five years, only the X for the current year due
> NOW >> So pledge accounting will require extra work unless all your pledges
> are simple, immediate pledges.
>
> Volunteering to be a paying guest at a “Foundation Dinner” is the only
> undertaking that fits into the definition of a pledge, but I can see that
> setting up an invoice for it would make it “receivable”, and have a
> lifetime that went beyond the financial year’s end.
>
> But if I avoided setting up invoices for this particular fundraising
> activity, could I use the Business Features to record income from a each
> member (“Customer”) as it arises?
>
> >
> > But you can easily have a second set of books to keep and report on "by
> member" stuff, and if using the business features, can invoice.
>
> That’s a method I hadn’t thought of, and will look into. There’s the
> obvious risk of these two sets of books getting out of step.
>
> > Note though that  at least in the US "membership dies" are not really
> receivables <<you are legally allowed to drop out of a voluntary
> organization at any time -- organizational rules about "demits", etc. apply
> only if you want to rejoin>> However many organizations even cash basis
> [prefer being able to send out "statements" (invoices to members)
> >
> > Notice that I misunderstood.What I was suggesting was if you had to
> supply to the government the CORRECT member name for the donations, not
> just that it had to be SOME member's name. The latter is of course far
> simpler in terms of record keeping << I was picturing the former because
> possibly there were by person limits >>
>
> From the point of view of the annual report to OSCR (the charity
> regulator) there is no need for detailed reporting of income - see
> https://www.oscr.org.uk/media/1800/2015-01-27-example-accounts-scio.pdf -
> but the annual claim for Gift Aid requires the total contributed per annum
> by each individual member. The 25% boost that Gift Aid covers is the reason
> why most Rotary Clubs in the UK set up charities which operate “at
> arms-length” from the clubs themselves but whose trustees are club
> officers.
>
> >
> > Michael
> >
> > PS: I do NOT attempt to get gnucash to produce reports in their final
> form. Easier to export full reports and then copy into a document that gets
> edited to remove extraneous detail, insert annotations, etc.
> >
>
> The way I’ve set up the accounts may need review, as I’m going to require
> a lot of individual searches to isolate contributions from individual
> members.
>
> I think I need to remove a tier and identify the intended destination of
> the income using a tag in a searchable field.
>
> Income:Destination1:MemberA … MemberN
> Income:Destination2:MemberA … MemberN
> …
> Income:DestinationX:MemberA … MemberN
>
>  - a total of X * N accounts.
>
>
> Becomes
>
> Income:Donations:MemberA … MemberN, with Destinations 1…X recorded in the
> Description field of each transaction.
>
>  - a total of N accounts.
>
> Thanks for your continued interest and support,
>
> Michael
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [GNC] Bookkeeping for a club's charity account - use business features?

Mike or Penny Novack-4
On 8/26/2019 6:49 AM, Greg Feneis wrote:
> Michael, I use GnuCash for my cash business and don't have any trouble with
> it.  I think the only trouble you may have is with report generation.
>
> Kind regards, Greg Feneis
> (Pixel 3)
>
Well yes, it is precisely that, adjustments necessary to convert
"accrual" to "cash" for reports. Not THAT hard to do for those
experienced in bookkeeping (the old way) and if doesn't need to be done
all that often. If quarterly of annually only, I might do it that way.

But a business is different than a club/church/charity  and it is only
for the latter sort of org that I am willing to help in this way. The
reason I am suggesting "a second set of books" JUST to send invoices
(member statements) is that in my experience possibly the majority of
collections will be "not as billed".

Take a church/synagogue as am example. The "membership dues" might be
set as X, and perhaps half the congregation sends in that amount. The
other half, people contact the treasurer (or an abatement committee) and
say "sorry,we just can't afford that much" and they get an "abatement"
<< an arrangement to pay what they can >> In other words, the total of
"receivables" is NEVER going to be close to what comes in.

Would you, as a business, be so casual about "not had to adjust: is HALF
of you invoices involved adjustment to "bad debt"? << in the
organizational case, "abated" >>

The point is, the second set of books I am talking about is JUST for
sending out "statements". You don't necessarily have to record there
when payments come in unless you want to be able to send out follow-up
statements. There is an argument for NOT doing it. If "abated amount" is
put in and statement sent out again (for the lesser amount) that is ALL
you would get. And of course might not even get that. But if the person
is told by the treasurer or abatement committee ,"look, pay half you
can" you MIGHT end up getting more. Usually the board wants to know how
many (what percentage of our congregation is abated) and how much
collected from all who are abated (for predicting total membership dues
for budgeting) but NOT "who is abated and by how much" << that is
private, confidential >> Note that is you are recording these incoming
payments into the (real/main) books on cash basis and that is the
information needed just have to have "membership dues" and under it two
child accounts "full membership dues" and "abated membership dues".

Michael D Novack
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Re: [GNC] Bookkeeping for a club's charity account - use business features?

Adrien Monteleone-2
In reply to this post by foxylady337

> On Aug 26, 2019 w35d238, at 3:43 AM, Michael Hendry <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>> And I see that your organization does pledges. Here in the US, pledges ARE receivable,but only according to the terms of the pledge << thus if a person pledged X a year for five years, only the X for the current year due NOW >> So pledge accounting will require extra work unless all your pledges are simple, immediate pledges.
>
> Volunteering to be a paying guest at a “Foundation Dinner” is the only undertaking that fits into the definition of a pledge, but I can see that setting up an invoice for it would make it “receivable”, and have a lifetime that went beyond the financial year’s end.
>
> But if I avoided setting up invoices for this particular fundraising activity, could I use the Business Features to record income from a each member (“Customer”) as it arises?

To answer that question first, yes, you can take a payment without a corresponding invoice already having been posted, it is considered a ‘pre-payment’. But you won’t get any comparison against pledged amounts because that is what the invoice is for and those wouldn’t have been posted (or created) yet. You’ll just get to see that MemberX paid a certain amount. (and since there is no pledge amount to balance it, it won’t calculate your ‘gift’ portion.)

However,

The issue with invoices on a cash basis in GnuCash is you can’t post them till payment is received otherwise it hits the ‘Income’ account too early. But that negates the ability to see what was ‘pledged’ vs. what was paid.

You can get around this limitation by creating two accounts, something like this:

Income:Pledges
Income:Receipts

1) Post the invoices to the Pledges account.
2) Take payments as normal.

You can now track what money is promised vs. what was paid via Customer Reports.

3) When payments are made, make an additional transaction that transfers the same amount of funds from the Pledges account to the Receipts account.

4) When you run your Income Statement, include the Receipts account, but not the Pledges account.

You now have a cash-basis Income Statement, _and_ you get to take advantage of the A/R features.


>
>>
>> But you can easily have a second set of books to keep and report on "by member" stuff, and if using the business features, can invoice.
>
> That’s a method I hadn’t thought of, and will look into. There’s the obvious risk of these two sets of books getting out of step.
>
>> Note though that  at least in the US "membership dies" are not really receivables <<you are legally allowed to drop out of a voluntary organization at any time -- organizational rules about "demits", etc. apply only if you want to rejoin>> However many organizations even cash basis [prefer being able to send out "statements" (invoices to members)
>>
>> Notice that I misunderstood.What I was suggesting was if you had to supply to the government the CORRECT member name for the donations, not just that it had to be SOME member's name. The latter is of course far simpler in terms of record keeping << I was picturing the former because possibly there were by person limits >>
>
> From the point of view of the annual report to OSCR (the charity regulator) there is no need for detailed reporting of income - see https://www.oscr.org.uk/media/1800/2015-01-27-example-accounts-scio.pdf - but the annual claim for Gift Aid requires the total contributed per annum by each individual member. The 25% boost that Gift Aid covers is the reason why most Rotary Clubs in the UK set up charities which operate “at arms-length” from the clubs themselves but whose trustees are club officers.
>
>>
>> Michael
>>
>> PS: I do NOT attempt to get gnucash to produce reports in their final form. Easier to export full reports and then copy into a document that gets edited to remove extraneous detail, insert annotations, etc.
>>
>
> The way I’ve set up the accounts may need review, as I’m going to require a lot of individual searches to isolate contributions from individual members.
>
> I think I need to remove a tier and identify the intended destination of the income using a tag in a searchable field.
>
> Income:Destination1:MemberA … MemberN
> Income:Destination2:MemberA … MemberN
> …
> Income:DestinationX:MemberA … MemberN
>
> - a total of X * N accounts.

>
>
> Becomes
>
> Income:Donations:MemberA … MemberN, with Destinations 1…X recorded in the Description field of each transaction.
>
> - a total of N accounts.
>
> Thanks for your continued interest and support,
>
> Michael

1) Do you need to know how much each member donated for each destination?

or

2)

  For the Club:

    Do you just want to track how much was received (in aggregate for all members) for each destination

  and

  For the Members:

    How much (in aggregate for all destinations) each member donated? (for Gift Aid purposes)



If #1 one, that is quite messy, yes, and you’ll need lots of manual transactions and some sort of searchable/filterable tag system as I described previously. (to avoid hundreds or thousands of accounts and sub-accounts)

But if #2, then the business features can handle that easily with invoice line items posted to Income accounts for each destination and assigning those invoices to  individual customer accounts. No need for the individual member account(s) in the Income tree at all. GnuCash will track each customer's pledged (invoiced) amounts as well as payments. The gift portion *might* be a little trickier, but I think it can be achieved by the expense vouchers feature. (since they operate as sort of a ‘chargeback’) I’ll have to investigate.

Regards,
Adrien


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Re: [GNC] Bookkeeping for a club's charity account - use business features?

Christopher Lam
This "pledged income" tracking looks eerily similar to the budgeting aka
"virtual transactions" that I was floating about some time ago...

On Tue., 27 Aug. 2019, 00:29 Adrien Monteleone, <
[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> > On Aug 26, 2019 w35d238, at 3:43 AM, Michael Hendry <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >> And I see that your organization does pledges. Here in the US, pledges
> ARE receivable,but only according to the terms of the pledge << thus if a
> person pledged X a year for five years, only the X for the current year due
> NOW >> So pledge accounting will require extra work unless all your pledges
> are simple, immediate pledges.
> >
> > Volunteering to be a paying guest at a “Foundation Dinner” is the only
> undertaking that fits into the definition of a pledge, but I can see that
> setting up an invoice for it would make it “receivable”, and have a
> lifetime that went beyond the financial year’s end.
> >
> > But if I avoided setting up invoices for this particular fundraising
> activity, could I use the Business Features to record income from a each
> member (“Customer”) as it arises?
>
> To answer that question first, yes, you can take a payment without a
> corresponding invoice already having been posted, it is considered a
> ‘pre-payment’. But you won’t get any comparison against pledged amounts
> because that is what the invoice is for and those wouldn’t have been posted
> (or created) yet. You’ll just get to see that MemberX paid a certain
> amount. (and since there is no pledge amount to balance it, it won’t
> calculate your ‘gift’ portion.)
>
> However,
>
> The issue with invoices on a cash basis in GnuCash is you can’t post them
> till payment is received otherwise it hits the ‘Income’ account too early.
> But that negates the ability to see what was ‘pledged’ vs. what was paid.
>
> You can get around this limitation by creating two accounts, something
> like this:
>
> Income:Pledges
> Income:Receipts
>
> 1) Post the invoices to the Pledges account.
> 2) Take payments as normal.
>
> You can now track what money is promised vs. what was paid via Customer
> Reports.
>
> 3) When payments are made, make an additional transaction that transfers
> the same amount of funds from the Pledges account to the Receipts account.
>
> 4) When you run your Income Statement, include the Receipts account, but
> not the Pledges account.
>
> You now have a cash-basis Income Statement, _and_ you get to take
> advantage of the A/R features.
>
>
> >
> >>
> >> But you can easily have a second set of books to keep and report on "by
> member" stuff, and if using the business features, can invoice.
> >
> > That’s a method I hadn’t thought of, and will look into. There’s the
> obvious risk of these two sets of books getting out of step.
> >
> >> Note though that  at least in the US "membership dies" are not really
> receivables <<you are legally allowed to drop out of a voluntary
> organization at any time -- organizational rules about "demits", etc. apply
> only if you want to rejoin>> However many organizations even cash basis
> [prefer being able to send out "statements" (invoices to members)
> >>
> >> Notice that I misunderstood.What I was suggesting was if you had to
> supply to the government the CORRECT member name for the donations, not
> just that it had to be SOME member's name. The latter is of course far
> simpler in terms of record keeping << I was picturing the former because
> possibly there were by person limits >>
> >
> > From the point of view of the annual report to OSCR (the charity
> regulator) there is no need for detailed reporting of income - see
> https://www.oscr.org.uk/media/1800/2015-01-27-example-accounts-scio.pdf -
> but the annual claim for Gift Aid requires the total contributed per annum
> by each individual member. The 25% boost that Gift Aid covers is the reason
> why most Rotary Clubs in the UK set up charities which operate “at
> arms-length” from the clubs themselves but whose trustees are club
> officers.
> >
> >>
> >> Michael
> >>
> >> PS: I do NOT attempt to get gnucash to produce reports in their final
> form. Easier to export full reports and then copy into a document that gets
> edited to remove extraneous detail, insert annotations, etc.
> >>
> >
> > The way I’ve set up the accounts may need review, as I’m going to
> require a lot of individual searches to isolate contributions from
> individual members.
> >
> > I think I need to remove a tier and identify the intended destination of
> the income using a tag in a searchable field.
> >
> > Income:Destination1:MemberA … MemberN
> > Income:Destination2:MemberA … MemberN
> > …
> > Income:DestinationX:MemberA … MemberN
> >
> > - a total of X * N accounts.
>
> >
> >
> > Becomes
> >
> > Income:Donations:MemberA … MemberN, with Destinations 1…X recorded in
> the Description field of each transaction.
> >
> > - a total of N accounts.
> >
> > Thanks for your continued interest and support,
> >
> > Michael
>
> 1) Do you need to know how much each member donated for each destination?
>
> or
>
> 2)
>
>   For the Club:
>
>     Do you just want to track how much was received (in aggregate for all
> members) for each destination
>
>   and
>
>   For the Members:
>
>     How much (in aggregate for all destinations) each member donated? (for
> Gift Aid purposes)
>
>
>
> If #1 one, that is quite messy, yes, and you’ll need lots of manual
> transactions and some sort of searchable/filterable tag system as I
> described previously. (to avoid hundreds or thousands of accounts and
> sub-accounts)
>
> But if #2, then the business features can handle that easily with invoice
> line items posted to Income accounts for each destination and assigning
> those invoices to  individual customer accounts. No need for the individual
> member account(s) in the Income tree at all. GnuCash will track each
> customer's pledged (invoiced) amounts as well as payments. The gift portion
> *might* be a little trickier, but I think it can be achieved by the expense
> vouchers feature. (since they operate as sort of a ‘chargeback’) I’ll have
> to investigate.
>
> Regards,
> Adrien
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> gnucash-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
> If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see
> https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information.
> -----
> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>
_______________________________________________
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If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information.
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Re: [GNC] Bookkeeping for a club's charity account - use business features?

doncram
In your case, Michael Hendry, are there other persons who need or work with
some of the information?  Surely then there are communication / information
sharing needs, which cannot be addressed easily with your single-access
semi-complicated GnuCash system.

I, too, am new treasurer of a nonprofit, a botanical garden society which
is set up as a charitable nonprofit, and I have puzzled over similar issues
for tracking, but also for sharing info.  A big issue is that select other
board members or volunteers work with some of the same information.  The
treasurer job is too big already, and others are better about handling some
tasks like tracking membership renewals (i.e. contributions at "pledge"
amount) and sending out reminders, and following up with thank you notes in
writing for larger donations, and email notes for smaller ones.  One
volunteer, call her the membership director,  has a big spreadsheet of most
of the members/contributors and dollar amounts and so on.  The board
secretary is really good at writing nice thank you notes for the bigger
donations. I hate the fact that I, as treasurer, if I follow the past
practice, am essentially duplicating a whole lot of info, when I enter each
donation or membership payment, putting member name into a description/note
field.  "We" already have that information!  Couldn't it be shared?  And
what about cross-checking the spreadsheet information vs. my accounting
entries.... I know there are at least a few discrepancies, which need to be
identified and followed up upon, else a donor gets no acknowledgment or
gets "billed" twice or whatever.

So, I have started use of a combined-access spreadsheet, by uploading the
membership director's spreadsheet to a Google Docs spreadsheet, and I
talked her through using it online.  Happily it is perfectly easy for her
to do her job in the now-shared spreadsheet.  And I will add columns as
necessary to record deposit dates and whatnot.  I am hoping to do my data
entry about specific individuals there, i.e. by just recording treasurer
stuff in "my" columns, adding to already-existing rows for all members.  I
am hoping to stop my very detailed accounting, and making occasional
accounting entries that are summary, tying out to the info in my columns.
E.g. I can record the donation/membership check amounts in a column for
income from August 2019, say, and make just one summary entry into the
accounting system.

I cannot imagine myself producing all the necessary reports to serve others
and all purposes if I was handling all the info myself.  And I can't
imagine collaborating with others in any way other than a shared
spreadsheet.  Any comments/suggestions?

Thank you Michael Hendry for the question and thank all the participants so
far!

sincerely, Donald Cram



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On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 5:19 PM Christopher Lam <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> This "pledged income" tracking looks eerily similar to the budgeting aka
> "virtual transactions" that I was floating about some time ago...
>
> On Tue., 27 Aug. 2019, 00:29 Adrien Monteleone, <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> >
> > > On Aug 26, 2019 w35d238, at 3:43 AM, Michael Hendry <
> > [hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >> And I see that your organization does pledges. Here in the US, pledges
> > ARE receivable,but only according to the terms of the pledge << thus if a
> > person pledged X a year for five years, only the X for the current year
> due
> > NOW >> So pledge accounting will require extra work unless all your
> pledges
> > are simple, immediate pledges.
> > >
> > > Volunteering to be a paying guest at a “Foundation Dinner” is the only
> > undertaking that fits into the definition of a pledge, but I can see that
> > setting up an invoice for it would make it “receivable”, and have a
> > lifetime that went beyond the financial year’s end.
> > >
> > > But if I avoided setting up invoices for this particular fundraising
> > activity, could I use the Business Features to record income from a each
> > member (“Customer”) as it arises?
> >
> > To answer that question first, yes, you can take a payment without a
> > corresponding invoice already having been posted, it is considered a
> > ‘pre-payment’. But you won’t get any comparison against pledged amounts
> > because that is what the invoice is for and those wouldn’t have been
> posted
> > (or created) yet. You’ll just get to see that MemberX paid a certain
> > amount. (and since there is no pledge amount to balance it, it won’t
> > calculate your ‘gift’ portion.)
> >
> > However,
> >
> > The issue with invoices on a cash basis in GnuCash is you can’t post them
> > till payment is received otherwise it hits the ‘Income’ account too
> early.
> > But that negates the ability to see what was ‘pledged’ vs. what was paid.
> >
> > You can get around this limitation by creating two accounts, something
> > like this:
> >
> > Income:Pledges
> > Income:Receipts
> >
> > 1) Post the invoices to the Pledges account.
> > 2) Take payments as normal.
> >
> > You can now track what money is promised vs. what was paid via Customer
> > Reports.
> >
> > 3) When payments are made, make an additional transaction that transfers
> > the same amount of funds from the Pledges account to the Receipts
> account.
> >
> > 4) When you run your Income Statement, include the Receipts account, but
> > not the Pledges account.
> >
> > You now have a cash-basis Income Statement, _and_ you get to take
> > advantage of the A/R features.
> >
> >
> > >
> > >>
> > >> But you can easily have a second set of books to keep and report on
> "by
> > member" stuff, and if using the business features, can invoice.
> > >
> > > That’s a method I hadn’t thought of, and will look into. There’s the
> > obvious risk of these two sets of books getting out of step.
> > >
> > >> Note though that  at least in the US "membership dies" are not really
> > receivables <<you are legally allowed to drop out of a voluntary
> > organization at any time -- organizational rules about "demits", etc.
> apply
> > only if you want to rejoin>> However many organizations even cash basis
> > [prefer being able to send out "statements" (invoices to members)
> > >>
> > >> Notice that I misunderstood.What I was suggesting was if you had to
> > supply to the government the CORRECT member name for the donations, not
> > just that it had to be SOME member's name. The latter is of course far
> > simpler in terms of record keeping << I was picturing the former because
> > possibly there were by person limits >>
> > >
> > > From the point of view of the annual report to OSCR (the charity
> > regulator) there is no need for detailed reporting of income - see
> > https://www.oscr.org.uk/media/1800/2015-01-27-example-accounts-scio.pdf
> -
> > but the annual claim for Gift Aid requires the total contributed per
> annum
> > by each individual member. The 25% boost that Gift Aid covers is the
> reason
> > why most Rotary Clubs in the UK set up charities which operate “at
> > arms-length” from the clubs themselves but whose trustees are club
> > officers.
> > >
> > >>
> > >> Michael
> > >>
> > >> PS: I do NOT attempt to get gnucash to produce reports in their final
> > form. Easier to export full reports and then copy into a document that
> gets
> > edited to remove extraneous detail, insert annotations, etc.
> > >>
> > >
> > > The way I’ve set up the accounts may need review, as I’m going to
> > require a lot of individual searches to isolate contributions from
> > individual members.
> > >
> > > I think I need to remove a tier and identify the intended destination
> of
> > the income using a tag in a searchable field.
> > >
> > > Income:Destination1:MemberA … MemberN
> > > Income:Destination2:MemberA … MemberN
> > > …
> > > Income:DestinationX:MemberA … MemberN
> > >
> > > - a total of X * N accounts.
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Becomes
> > >
> > > Income:Donations:MemberA … MemberN, with Destinations 1…X recorded in
> > the Description field of each transaction.
> > >
> > > - a total of N accounts.
> > >
> > > Thanks for your continued interest and support,
> > >
> > > Michael
> >
> > 1) Do you need to know how much each member donated for each destination?
> >
> > or
> >
> > 2)
> >
> >   For the Club:
> >
> >     Do you just want to track how much was received (in aggregate for all
> > members) for each destination
> >
> >   and
> >
> >   For the Members:
> >
> >     How much (in aggregate for all destinations) each member donated?
> (for
> > Gift Aid purposes)
> >
> >
> >
> > If #1 one, that is quite messy, yes, and you’ll need lots of manual
> > transactions and some sort of searchable/filterable tag system as I
> > described previously. (to avoid hundreds or thousands of accounts and
> > sub-accounts)
> >
> > But if #2, then the business features can handle that easily with invoice
> > line items posted to Income accounts for each destination and assigning
> > those invoices to  individual customer accounts. No need for the
> individual
> > member account(s) in the Income tree at all. GnuCash will track each
> > customer's pledged (invoiced) amounts as well as payments. The gift
> portion
> > *might* be a little trickier, but I think it can be achieved by the
> expense
> > vouchers feature. (since they operate as sort of a ‘chargeback’) I’ll
> have
> > to investigate.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Adrien
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > gnucash-user mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
> > If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see
> > https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information.
> > -----
> > Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
> > You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
> >
> _______________________________________________
> gnucash-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
> If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see
> https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information.
> -----
> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>

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Re: [GNC] Bookkeeping for a club's charity account - use business features?

doncram
Oh, another complication for my botanical garden society, is that some of
the donations create obligations that need to be tracked.  Similar to how
Michael Hendry needs to track the multiple purposes for each individual's
payments.  Contributions might be earmarked for one of our subgarden areas,
to fund a tree or bench, or might "earn" placement of a memorial brick in
one of our patios.  The donor might want the brick done, or might not.  I
think the previous treasurer kept all this in her head somehow, or in some
separate file she might have kept, and she arranged for the bricks to be
done periodically, with text chosen by donor.  I cannot do any of that,
because I am limited and also the organization has been growing.  But the
info needs to go to the right other people.

Oh, by the way, for a shared spreadsheet or even for any non-shared
spreadsheet, one absolutely has to have an "original sort order" column, to
bring the spreadsheet back to regular format, when anyone sorts it
differently for some purpose, and those with access need to understand that
and not mess up that column, which is okay by everyone else in my case.
Again, I cannot imagine myself generating reports or whatever, I do not
have the time.  No way can I run multiple accounting systems for pledges or
whatever, either.  I can only imagine sharing the info in a joint-access
spreadsheet so others can add whatever they need to, and sort it however
they like and get what they need.  How else could this possibly be done?

Donald Cram

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On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 8:36 PM doncram <[hidden email]> wrote:

> In your case, Michael Hendry, are there other persons who need or work
> with some of the information?  Surely then there are communication /
> information sharing needs, which cannot be addressed easily with your
> single-access semi-complicated GnuCash system.
>
> I, too, am new treasurer of a nonprofit, a botanical garden society which
> is set up as a charitable nonprofit, and I have puzzled over similar issues
> for tracking, but also for sharing info.  A big issue is that select other
> board members or volunteers work with some of the same information.  The
> treasurer job is too big already, and others are better about handling some
> tasks like tracking membership renewals (i.e. contributions at "pledge"
> amount) and sending out reminders, and following up with thank you notes in
> writing for larger donations, and email notes for smaller ones.  One
> volunteer, call her the membership director,  has a big spreadsheet of most
> of the members/contributors and dollar amounts and so on.  The board
> secretary is really good at writing nice thank you notes for the bigger
> donations. I hate the fact that I, as treasurer, if I follow the past
> practice, am essentially duplicating a whole lot of info, when I enter each
> donation or membership payment, putting member name into a description/note
> field.  "We" already have that information!  Couldn't it be shared?  And
> what about cross-checking the spreadsheet information vs. my accounting
> entries.... I know there are at least a few discrepancies, which need to be
> identified and followed up upon, else a donor gets no acknowledgment or
> gets "billed" twice or whatever.
>
> So, I have started use of a combined-access spreadsheet, by uploading the
> membership director's spreadsheet to a Google Docs spreadsheet, and I
> talked her through using it online.  Happily it is perfectly easy for her
> to do her job in the now-shared spreadsheet.  And I will add columns as
> necessary to record deposit dates and whatnot.  I am hoping to do my data
> entry about specific individuals there, i.e. by just recording treasurer
> stuff in "my" columns, adding to already-existing rows for all members.  I
> am hoping to stop my very detailed accounting, and making occasional
> accounting entries that are summary, tying out to the info in my columns.
> E.g. I can record the donation/membership check amounts in a column for
> income from August 2019, say, and make just one summary entry into the
> accounting system.
>
> I cannot imagine myself producing all the necessary reports to serve
> others and all purposes if I was handling all the info myself.  And I can't
> imagine collaborating with others in any way other than a shared
> spreadsheet.  Any comments/suggestions?
>
> Thank you Michael Hendry for the question and thank all the participants
> so far!
>
> sincerely, Donald Cram
>
>
>
>
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> On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 5:19 PM Christopher Lam <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> This "pledged income" tracking looks eerily similar to the budgeting aka
>> "virtual transactions" that I was floating about some time ago...
>>
>> On Tue., 27 Aug. 2019, 00:29 Adrien Monteleone, <
>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > > On Aug 26, 2019 w35d238, at 3:43 AM, Michael Hendry <
>> > [hidden email]> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >> And I see that your organization does pledges. Here in the US,
>> pledges
>> > ARE receivable,but only according to the terms of the pledge << thus if
>> a
>> > person pledged X a year for five years, only the X for the current year
>> due
>> > NOW >> So pledge accounting will require extra work unless all your
>> pledges
>> > are simple, immediate pledges.
>> > >
>> > > Volunteering to be a paying guest at a “Foundation Dinner” is the only
>> > undertaking that fits into the definition of a pledge, but I can see
>> that
>> > setting up an invoice for it would make it “receivable”, and have a
>> > lifetime that went beyond the financial year’s end.
>> > >
>> > > But if I avoided setting up invoices for this particular fundraising
>> > activity, could I use the Business Features to record income from a each
>> > member (“Customer”) as it arises?
>> >
>> > To answer that question first, yes, you can take a payment without a
>> > corresponding invoice already having been posted, it is considered a
>> > ‘pre-payment’. But you won’t get any comparison against pledged amounts
>> > because that is what the invoice is for and those wouldn’t have been
>> posted
>> > (or created) yet. You’ll just get to see that MemberX paid a certain
>> > amount. (and since there is no pledge amount to balance it, it won’t
>> > calculate your ‘gift’ portion.)
>> >
>> > However,
>> >
>> > The issue with invoices on a cash basis in GnuCash is you can’t post
>> them
>> > till payment is received otherwise it hits the ‘Income’ account too
>> early.
>> > But that negates the ability to see what was ‘pledged’ vs. what was
>> paid.
>> >
>> > You can get around this limitation by creating two accounts, something
>> > like this:
>> >
>> > Income:Pledges
>> > Income:Receipts
>> >
>> > 1) Post the invoices to the Pledges account.
>> > 2) Take payments as normal.
>> >
>> > You can now track what money is promised vs. what was paid via Customer
>> > Reports.
>> >
>> > 3) When payments are made, make an additional transaction that transfers
>> > the same amount of funds from the Pledges account to the Receipts
>> account.
>> >
>> > 4) When you run your Income Statement, include the Receipts account, but
>> > not the Pledges account.
>> >
>> > You now have a cash-basis Income Statement, _and_ you get to take
>> > advantage of the A/R features.
>> >
>> >
>> > >
>> > >>
>> > >> But you can easily have a second set of books to keep and report on
>> "by
>> > member" stuff, and if using the business features, can invoice.
>> > >
>> > > That’s a method I hadn’t thought of, and will look into. There’s the
>> > obvious risk of these two sets of books getting out of step.
>> > >
>> > >> Note though that  at least in the US "membership dies" are not really
>> > receivables <<you are legally allowed to drop out of a voluntary
>> > organization at any time -- organizational rules about "demits", etc.
>> apply
>> > only if you want to rejoin>> However many organizations even cash basis
>> > [prefer being able to send out "statements" (invoices to members)
>> > >>
>> > >> Notice that I misunderstood.What I was suggesting was if you had to
>> > supply to the government the CORRECT member name for the donations, not
>> > just that it had to be SOME member's name. The latter is of course far
>> > simpler in terms of record keeping << I was picturing the former because
>> > possibly there were by person limits >>
>> > >
>> > > From the point of view of the annual report to OSCR (the charity
>> > regulator) there is no need for detailed reporting of income - see
>> > https://www.oscr.org.uk/media/1800/2015-01-27-example-accounts-scio.pdf
>> -
>> > but the annual claim for Gift Aid requires the total contributed per
>> annum
>> > by each individual member. The 25% boost that Gift Aid covers is the
>> reason
>> > why most Rotary Clubs in the UK set up charities which operate “at
>> > arms-length” from the clubs themselves but whose trustees are club
>> > officers.
>> > >
>> > >>
>> > >> Michael
>> > >>
>> > >> PS: I do NOT attempt to get gnucash to produce reports in their final
>> > form. Easier to export full reports and then copy into a document that
>> gets
>> > edited to remove extraneous detail, insert annotations, etc.
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > > The way I’ve set up the accounts may need review, as I’m going to
>> > require a lot of individual searches to isolate contributions from
>> > individual members.
>> > >
>> > > I think I need to remove a tier and identify the intended destination
>> of
>> > the income using a tag in a searchable field.
>> > >
>> > > Income:Destination1:MemberA … MemberN
>> > > Income:Destination2:MemberA … MemberN
>> > > …
>> > > Income:DestinationX:MemberA … MemberN
>> > >
>> > > - a total of X * N accounts.
>> >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Becomes
>> > >
>> > > Income:Donations:MemberA … MemberN, with Destinations 1…X recorded in
>> > the Description field of each transaction.
>> > >
>> > > - a total of N accounts.
>> > >
>> > > Thanks for your continued interest and support,
>> > >
>> > > Michael
>> >
>> > 1) Do you need to know how much each member donated for each
>> destination?
>> >
>> > or
>> >
>> > 2)
>> >
>> >   For the Club:
>> >
>> >     Do you just want to track how much was received (in aggregate for
>> all
>> > members) for each destination
>> >
>> >   and
>> >
>> >   For the Members:
>> >
>> >     How much (in aggregate for all destinations) each member donated?
>> (for
>> > Gift Aid purposes)
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > If #1 one, that is quite messy, yes, and you’ll need lots of manual
>> > transactions and some sort of searchable/filterable tag system as I
>> > described previously. (to avoid hundreds or thousands of accounts and
>> > sub-accounts)
>> >
>> > But if #2, then the business features can handle that easily with
>> invoice
>> > line items posted to Income accounts for each destination and assigning
>> > those invoices to  individual customer accounts. No need for the
>> individual
>> > member account(s) in the Income tree at all. GnuCash will track each
>> > customer's pledged (invoiced) amounts as well as payments. The gift
>> portion
>> > *might* be a little trickier, but I think it can be achieved by the
>> expense
>> > vouchers feature. (since they operate as sort of a ‘chargeback’) I’ll
>> have
>> > to investigate.
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> > Adrien
>> >
>> >
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Re: [GNC] Bookkeeping for a club's charity account - use business features?

Adrien Monteleone-2
In reply to this post by doncram
To make your life even easier, consider creating another Google Sheet that pulls info from the shared one, does the summary math you want, and results in an arrangement that can be imported directly into GnuCash. Then you don’t have to type anything twice and eliminate occasions for math mistakes.

Regards,
Adrien

> On Aug 26, 2019 w35d238, at 9:36 PM, doncram <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> In your case, Michael Hendry, are there other persons who need or work with some of the information?  Surely then there are communication / information sharing needs, which cannot be addressed easily with your single-access semi-complicated GnuCash system.  
>  
> I, too, am new treasurer of a nonprofit, a botanical garden society which is set up as a charitable nonprofit, and I have puzzled over similar issues for tracking, but also for sharing info.  A big issue is that select other board members or volunteers work with some of the same information.  The treasurer job is too big already, and others are better about handling some tasks like tracking membership renewals (i.e. contributions at "pledge" amount) and sending out reminders, and following up with thank you notes in writing for larger donations, and email notes for smaller ones.  One volunteer, call her the membership director,  has a big spreadsheet of most of the members/contributors and dollar amounts and so on.  The board secretary is really good at writing nice thank you notes for the bigger donations. I hate the fact that I, as treasurer, if I follow the past practice, am essentially duplicating a whole lot of info, when I enter each donation or membership payment, putting member name into a description/note field.  "We" already have that information!  Couldn't it be shared?  And what about cross-checking the spreadsheet information vs. my accounting entries.... I know there are at least a few discrepancies, which need to be identified and followed up upon, else a donor gets no acknowledgment or gets "billed" twice or whatever.
>
> So, I have started use of a combined-access spreadsheet, by uploading the membership director's spreadsheet to a Google Docs spreadsheet, and I talked her through using it online.  Happily it is perfectly easy for her to do her job in the now-shared spreadsheet.  And I will add columns as necessary to record deposit dates and whatnot.  I am hoping to do my data entry about specific individuals there, i.e. by just recording treasurer stuff in "my" columns, adding to already-existing rows for all members.  I am hoping to stop my very detailed accounting, and making occasional accounting entries that are summary, tying out to the info in my columns.  E.g. I can record the donation/membership check amounts in a column for income from August 2019, say, and make just one summary entry into the accounting system.
>
> I cannot imagine myself producing all the necessary reports to serve others and all purposes if I was handling all the info myself.  And I can't imagine collaborating with others in any way other than a shared spreadsheet.  Any comments/suggestions?
>
> Thank you Michael Hendry for the question and thank all the participants so far!
>
> sincerely, Donald Cram
>

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