[GNC] A feature request for next release

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[GNC] A feature request for next release

Rich Shepard
   I know how to read text, but don't have all icons for all applications
memorized. The only three icons with accompanying text on the current (3.2)
version are Save, Close, and Split. Every widget set has several choices for
pictures so there's no standard. However, word such as Post, and Reconcile
are universally understood and can be translated into all languages.

   I strongly encourage you to add text to _all_ icons and consider an option
to have a text only choice for those of us who find that more clearly
communicates what the operation is.

Regards,

Rich
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Re: [GNC] A feature request for next release

Adrien Monteleone-2
I think labels are already planned to be added for all icons. There have also been discussions around the icon choices themselves and/or redesigning the application around the Gnome Human Interface guidelines which will likely remove some of them entirely or replace them with label-buttons. Concerning the icons themselves, someone who’s a graphic designer would need to step up to work on them.

Regards,
Adrien

> On Sep 1, 2018, at 2:55 PM, Rich Shepard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>  I know how to read text, but don't have all icons for all applications
> memorized. The only three icons with accompanying text on the current (3.2)
> version are Save, Close, and Split. Every widget set has several choices for
> pictures so there's no standard. However, word such as Post, and Reconcile
> are universally understood and can be translated into all languages.
>
>  I strongly encourage you to add text to _all_ icons and consider an option
> to have a text only choice for those of us who find that more clearly
> communicates what the operation is.
>
> Regards,
>
> Rich
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Re: [GNC] A feature request for next release

Rich Shepard
On Sun, 2 Sep 2018, Adrien Monteleone wrote:

> I think labels are already planned to be added for all icons.

Adrien,

   That's a good start.

> There have also been discussions around the icon choices themselves and/or
> redesigning the application around the Gnome Human Interface guidelines
> which will likely remove some of them entirely or replace them with
> label-buttons.

   Regardless of the UI design pattern followed a text-only option should be
incorporated.

> Concerning the icons themselves, someone who’s a graphic designer would
> need to step up to work on them.

   I don't care how they look. I've seen KDE, Gnome, Xfce4, Qt, GTK+, and
wx.Widgets icons and they're still pictures.

Regards,

Rich
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Re: [GNC] A feature request for next release

Geert Janssens-4
Op zondag 2 september 2018 19:17:47 CEST schreef Rich Shepard:
> On Sun, 2 Sep 2018, Adrien Monteleone wrote:
> > I think labels are already planned to be added for all icons.
>
> Adrien,
>
>    That's a good start.

Yep.

>
> > There have also been discussions around the icon choices themselves and/or
> > redesigning the application around the Gnome Human Interface guidelines
> > which will likely remove some of them entirely or replace them with
> > label-buttons.
>
>    Regardless of the UI design pattern followed a text-only option should be
> incorporated.
>
Nope.

Here's my view on it: there are more ideas for the gnucash project than
manpower to implement them all. So by necessity we prioritize.

Every extra configuration option that is added increases the maintenance
burden. Not a bit, but exponentially. Even a simple one as how to display tool
bar elements adds more code that can have bugs or become buggy over time. So
again due to time constraints we should be very conservative in adding
configuration options.

And if we add options, I prefer these to configure the accounting aspects of
gnucash, not the visual appearance.

So just adding an option to choose the visual style of the tool bar is -
pardon my pun - not an option. In fact Bob Fewell implemented this while I was
on holidays and I have refused to add it to the code. The above is my
motivation.

I'm not against UI tweaks in principle, but I think this level of
configurability should not be part of the core gnucash application. Many
tweaks can be done via theming or css customization. I would even be happy if
someone came up with something like the gnome-tweak-tool specifically to make
it easier for users to make style changes in gnucash.

As for the specific suggestion of text only tool bar buttons, this used to be
one of such user tweaks. Unfortunately gtk (the gui toolkit we depend on)
dropped this option. You could consider this a bug, but that would make it a
gtk bug. I don't want gnucash to become more complicated just to work around
it.

Or in other words I believe the gnucash application should follow the chosen
toolkit's defaults and guidelines and focus on getting a powerful accounting
engine under the hood.

Having said all that, I also think our UI is desperately in need of some
serious review and improvement. It's more than 20 years old and a lot has
changed in terms of computer interaction in that time. That is a project on
its own though which may or may not be started for gnucash 4.x.

Geert


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Re: [GNC] A feature request for next release

Rich Shepard
On Sun, 2 Sep 2018, Geert Janssens wrote:

> As for the specific suggestion of text only tool bar buttons, this used to
> be one of such user tweaks. Unfortunately gtk (the gui toolkit we depend
> on) dropped this option. You could consider this a bug, but that would
> make it a gtk bug. I don't want gnucash to become more complicated just to
> work around it.

Geert,

   Yes, I remember this from many years ago. I'll consider asking the GTK
folks to add it back.

> Having said all that, I also think our UI is desperately in need of some
> serious review and improvement. It's more than 20 years old and a lot has
> changed in terms of computer interaction in that time. That is a project
> on its own though which may or may not be started for gnucash 4.x.

   My perspective on application UI is that function should preceed form. The
UI should facilitate using the tool, and being 'pretty' should be a much
lower priority as that's in the eye of the user.

Regards,

Rich
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Re: [GNC] A feature request for next release

Geert Janssens-4
Op zondag 2 september 2018 20:49:22 CEST schreef Rich Shepard:

> On Sun, 2 Sep 2018, Geert Janssens wrote:
> > As for the specific suggestion of text only tool bar buttons, this used to
> > be one of such user tweaks. Unfortunately gtk (the gui toolkit we depend
> > on) dropped this option. You could consider this a bug, but that would
> > make it a gtk bug. I don't want gnucash to become more complicated just to
> > work around it.
>
> Geert,
>
>    Yes, I remember this from many years ago. I'll consider asking the GTK
> folks to add it back.
>
> > Having said all that, I also think our UI is desperately in need of some
> > serious review and improvement. It's more than 20 years old and a lot has
> > changed in terms of computer interaction in that time. That is a project
> > on its own though which may or may not be started for gnucash 4.x.
>
>    My perspective on application UI is that function should preceed form.
> The UI should facilitate using the tool, and being 'pretty' should be a
> much lower priority as that's in the eye of the user.
>
Agreed completely and more or less the basic idea underpinning the motivation
I gave. If you read the Gnome human interface guidelines (which I was alluding
at in "toolkit's defaults and guidelines") they are also very much focused on
function, not on 'pretty'.

Geert


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Re: [GNC] A feature request for next release

Rich Shepard
On Sun, 2 Sep 2018, Geert Janssens wrote:

> Agreed completely and more or less the basic idea underpinning the
> motivation I gave. If you read the Gnome human interface guidelines (which
> I was alluding at in "toolkit's defaults and guidelines") they are also
> very much focused on function, not on 'pretty'.

Geert,

   While accepting your justification for not (yet?) providing a text-only
option that UI is certainly functional with no pretention of being pretty.
:-)

Best regards,

Rich
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Re: [GNC] A feature request for next release

David Cousens
In reply to this post by Rich Shepard
Rich,

All of the icons in the toolbar that I have looked at in GC 3.2 running on
Linux (Mint 19) seem to have tooltips which explain their function
implemented which show up if you hover over the icons (not just Save Close
and Split). A little slow but ok while you become familiar with the icon
meanings. Is this not the case on the OS you are using? If not it may be an
OS dependent problem.

David



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Re: [GNC] A feature request for next release

Adrien Monteleone-2
Not sure about the tooltips, but some (not all) icons have labels defined. If they did, then both would show by default as they do now for some buttons, but then users would have the option to use CSS to hide either the icon or the label if they only wanted one or the other.

Regards,
Adrien

> On Sep 2, 2018, at 8:30 PM, David Cousens <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Rich,
>
> All of the icons in the toolbar that I have looked at in GC 3.2 running on
> Linux (Mint 19) seem to have tooltips which explain their function
> implemented which show up if you hover over the icons (not just Save Close
> and Split). A little slow but ok while you become familiar with the icon
> meanings. Is this not the case on the OS you are using? If not it may be an
> OS dependent problem.
>
> David
>
>
>
> -----
> David Cousens
> --
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Re: [GNC] A feature request for next release

Rich Shepard
In reply to this post by David Cousens
On Sun, 2 Sep 2018, David Cousens wrote:

> All of the icons in the toolbar that I have looked at in GC 3.2 running on
> Linux (Mint 19) seem to have tooltips which explain their function
> implemented which show up if you hover over the icons (not just Save Close
> and Split). A little slow but ok while you become familiar with the icon
> meanings. Is this not the case on the OS you are using? If not it may be
> an OS dependent problem.

David,

   You're absolutely correct. Every application using icons defaults to using
tool tips. As you write, it requires moving the pointing device and takes a
bit more time.

   Text on a toolbar does not require tool tips. And, many applications have
keyboard shortcuts so that Alt-<letter> provides direct access. For example,
the GIMP allows me to typd Ctrl-Shift-e to export a file instead of clicing
on the File menu, then the Export item.

Rich
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Re: [GNC] A feature request for next release

Rich Shepard
In reply to this post by Adrien Monteleone-2
On Mon, 3 Sep 2018, Adrien Monteleone wrote:

> Not sure about the tooltips, but some (not all) icons have labels defined.
> If they did, then both would show by default as they do now for some
> buttons, but then users would have the option to use CSS to hide either
> the icon or the label if they only wanted one or the other.

Adrien,

   If I find where the css file is located could I add text to the tool bar,
or replace the icons with only text?

Rich
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Re: [GNC] A feature request for next release

Adrien Monteleone-2
It doesn’t appear that way from what I’ve tested so far.

The labels have to be added in code first and then you can use CSS to hide one or the other. I examined a few buttons without visible labels and they had no label defined at all.

You can use the GtkInspector to test this by adding the labels there, but once you restart the app, they are gone as there isn’t a way (that I can see) to save those changes since the code hasn’t been re-compiled.

You’ll either have to wait till the devs add the labels in a future release, or download the source, add the labels in and compile your own version.

Regards,
Adrien

> On Sep 3, 2018, at 7:44 AM, Rich Shepard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 3 Sep 2018, Adrien Monteleone wrote:
>
>> Not sure about the tooltips, but some (not all) icons have labels defined.
>> If they did, then both would show by default as they do now for some
>> buttons, but then users would have the option to use CSS to hide either
>> the icon or the label if they only wanted one or the other.
>
> Adrien,
>
>  If I find where the css file is located could I add text to the tool bar,
> or replace the icons with only text?
>
> Rich
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Re: [GNC] A feature request for next release

Rich Shepard
On Mon, 3 Sep 2018, Adrien Monteleone wrote:

> It doesn’t appear that way from what I’ve tested so far.

Adrien,

   Okay. Thanks for testing.

Regards,

Rich
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Re: [GNC] A feature request for next release

Geert Janssens-4
I have just committed changes which will make the toolbar buttons default to
(small) icons and text. Although this makes the toolbar wider on most page
types it's the best compromise to make with the current state of the ui (and
quality of the icons).

Adrien, you may want to experiment with the new code and check whether css can
now be used to hide either icon or toolbar :)

Regards,

Geert

Op maandag 3 september 2018 19:32:50 CEST schreef Rich Shepard:

> On Mon, 3 Sep 2018, Adrien Monteleone wrote:
> > It doesn’t appear that way from what I’ve tested so far.
>
> Adrien,
>
>    Okay. Thanks for testing.
>
> Regards,
>
> Rich
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Re: [GNC] A feature request for next release

Rich Shepard
On Mon, 3 Sep 2018, Geert Janssens wrote:

> I have just committed changes which will make the toolbar buttons default
> to (small) icons and text. Although this makes the toolbar wider on most
> page types it's the best compromise to make with the current state of the
> ui (and quality of the icons).

Geert,

   Thank you. I'm always willing to wait for feature requests so your
response is far above what is expected by any of us.

   As a touch-typist who prefers to keep my hands on the keyboard and ignore
the trackball -- except to select a vitrual console on which to type -- I
accept that I'm in the minority of users nowadays.

Best regards,

Rich
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Re: [GNC] A feature request for next release

Adrien Monteleone-2
In reply to this post by Geert Janssens-4
Will do, thanks Geert.

Regards,
Adrien

> On Sep 3, 2018, at 12:42 PM, Geert Janssens <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I have just committed changes which will make the toolbar buttons default to
> (small) icons and text. Although this makes the toolbar wider on most page
> types it's the best compromise to make with the current state of the ui (and
> quality of the icons).
>
> Adrien, you may want to experiment with the new code and check whether css can
> now be used to hide either icon or toolbar :)
>
> Regards,
>
> Geert
>
> Op maandag 3 september 2018 19:32:50 CEST schreef Rich Shepard:
>> On Mon, 3 Sep 2018, Adrien Monteleone wrote:
>>> It doesn’t appear that way from what I’ve tested so far.
>>
>> Adrien,
>>
>>   Okay. Thanks for testing.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Rich
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>
>
>
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Re: [GNC] A feature request for next release

Adrien Monteleone-2
In reply to this post by Geert Janssens-4
Forgot to ask, but I’m sure I’ll see it when I get it built and fire the inspector, but, did you happen to assign mnemonics to them for keyboard access?

Regards,
Adrien

> On Sep 3, 2018, at 12:42 PM, Geert Janssens <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I have just committed changes which will make the toolbar buttons default to
> (small) icons and text. Although this makes the toolbar wider on most page
> types it's the best compromise to make with the current state of the ui (and
> quality of the icons).
>
> Adrien, you may want to experiment with the new code and check whether css can
> now be used to hide either icon or toolbar :)
>
> Regards,
>
> Geert
>
> Op maandag 3 september 2018 19:32:50 CEST schreef Rich Shepard:
>> On Mon, 3 Sep 2018, Adrien Monteleone wrote:
>>> It doesn’t appear that way from what I’ve tested so far.
>>
>> Adrien,
>>
>>   Okay. Thanks for testing.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Rich
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>
>
>
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Re: [GNC] A feature request for next release

Geert Janssens-4
Op maandag 3 september 2018 21:12:45 CEST schreef Adrien Monteleone:
> Forgot to ask, but I’m sure I’ll see it when I get it built and fire the
> inspector, but, did you happen to assign mnemonics to them for keyboard
> access?

They should be the same as the corresponding menu items, because the tool
buttons are built from the same GtkActionEntry objects.

Regards,

Geert


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